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The BIG BIG ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM!!!!!

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Wardismvp, Apr 7, 2015.

Page 4 of 6

thorn058 Well-Known Member

16,556

4,356

Oct 19, 2011

Steel_Elvis said: ↑

So, I'm far from a pollyanna when it comes to anything Steeler related, and certainly when it comes to coaches. After the Tampa and NY Jets losses, I was ready to put Tomlin in the hot seat if he didn't get the ship righted, and I was one of the people who was dead set that Dick LeBeau's time had come. I've certainly debated those subjects with BF until everyone else on the board probably wanted us to get a room. However, even I have trouble finding fault with Lake at this juncture. Yeah, we've had trouble developing DBs, but what has he had to work with? I thought Hawthorne and Richardson were - at best - UDFA candidates after watching whatever I could find on them (which wasn't much because they weren't on anyone else's radar). Yet, castoffs like McCain and Blake performed much better than anyone could have reasonably expected. Heck, McCain parlayed his performance into a new contract that pretty much multiplied his annual pay by a factor of 4 or 5. Willie Gay has become one of the best 3rd corners in the league. It's not all doom and gloom on the DB front. What we need is for the front office to figure out what a good college DB looks like so that they take the right guys in a few weeks. Give Lake some friggin clay to sculpt with and we'll see what he's made of. Right now, he's been asked to work miracles with very little talent. I'm setting aside the Allen situation at the moment because he's the only example of a player that I expected to be good, who was not good last year. I keep hearing that it was because of an injury, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, I think Lake had him playing just fine in 2013 when he was probably our best DB.
Click to expand...

I'd also add in there Elvis that he had to work with in the frame work of what DL wanted as an overall scheme as well. So he was limited by how much he could coach them up. You really can't coach a guy up in man coverage if your scheme doesn't call for it or hardly ever calls for it.

thorn058, Apr 10, 2015

thorn058, Apr 10, 2015

#76
JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

13,091

2,478

Oct 18, 2011

thorn058 said: ↑

I'd also add in there Elvis that he had to work with in the frame work of what DL wanted as an overall scheme as well. So he was limited by how much he could coach them up. You really can't coach a guy up in man coverage if your scheme doesn't call for it or hardly ever calls for it.
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I think you make an excellent point here, thorn, and that brings up a question; what should a secondary coach be held accountable for? If the players we're drafting are not developing, is that on the position coach? What about the overall results on the field? If we suck in pass defense is the DB coach accountable? Or is it things like technique, the mental aspect of the position, etc. since the position coach can't really control the overall scheme. I guess it's how his players function and perform within the scheme but what does that really mean?

JackAttack 5958, Apr 10, 2015

JackAttack 5958, Apr 10, 2015

#77
thorn058 Well-Known Member

16,556

4,356

Oct 19, 2011

JackAttack 5958 said: ↑

Oh, okay, I either wasn't aware or had forgotten about that. I know Lewis and Wallace were high school friends though.
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I may have gotten the story confused Jack as all I'm finding is the Lewis and Wallace story.

thorn058, Apr 10, 2015

thorn058, Apr 10, 2015

#78
Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

44,192

9,976

Oct 16, 2011

JackAttack 5958 said: ↑

The really good coaches seem to be able to get the most out of mediocre talent. If you'll notice above, I did say that there were a couple of exceptions and McCain and Blake were who I had in mind. We haven't gotten much of anything really out of the DBs that we've drafted, however. That doesn't sit well with me. And there you go with your excuses again; those guys were "4th round or later". So what! A couple of them were third rounders. You know what, if you want to be considered a really good coach in the National Football League then get something out of your 3rd, 4th and 5th round draft picks! And you must be saying that I wear rose colored glasses because I do back the team. I'm just not reluctant to criticize a coach or player when it's warranted.
Click to expand...

And there you go again acting like facts are excuses. Fact is, Lake hasn't had a lot to work with and he has shown he can get a lot out of guys. Not every player succeeds in the NFL.

Blast Furnace, Apr 10, 2015

Blast Furnace, Apr 10, 2015

#79
thorn058 Well-Known Member

16,556

4,356

Oct 19, 2011

Blast Furnace said: ↑

And there you go again acting like facts are excuses. Fact is, Lake hasn't had a lot to work with and he has shown he can get a lot out of guys. Not every player succeeds in the NFL.
Click to expand...

That's a very true statement. When Mac and I were talking about Butler earlier in the thread I think that really drives the point home. Yes they have had some great LBers but there is a dark pit of guys taken in the draft, that never made it. For a team that has had outstanding play from guys that weren't high draft picks at LB to have so many that missed as well just shows that not everyone can make it. Now I'm going to throw out a name here, not because he played for the Steelers but because if there ever was a sure thing that never panned out this guy is it, Andy Katzenmoyer. If you would have said that he would have a forgettable career in the NFL I would have laughed and yet it happened. So sometimes you can't predict what is goign to happen.

thorn058, Apr 10, 2015

thorn058, Apr 10, 2015

#80
JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

13,091

2,478

Oct 18, 2011

Blast Furnace said: ↑

And there you go again acting like facts are excuses. Fact is, Lake hasn't had a lot to work with and he has shown he can get a lot out of guys. Not every player succeeds in the NFL.
Click to expand...

Fact is the cream of the crop coaches in the NFL know how to make average players good and good players great. They make solid performers out of mid-round talent. But you're right, I guess we've got to deliver first round, premium talent to our positional coaches before we can expect too much from them.

JackAttack 5958, Apr 10, 2015

JackAttack 5958, Apr 10, 2015

#81
Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

44,192

9,976

Oct 16, 2011

JackAttack 5958 said: ↑

Fact is the cream of the crop coaches in the NFL know how to make average players good and good players great. They make solid performers out of mid-round talent. But you're right, I guess we've got to deliver first round, premium talent to our positional coaches before we can expect too much from them.
Click to expand...

I thought you already acknowledged Blake, McCain and Gay, oh I forgot, they were former 1st rounders.

Blast Furnace, Apr 10, 2015

Blast Furnace, Apr 10, 2015

#82
JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

13,091

2,478

Oct 18, 2011

Blast Furnace said: ↑

I thought you already acknowledged Blake, McCain and Gay, oh I forgot, they were former 1st rounders.
Click to expand...

I have acknowledged that and I'll give Lake credit where credit is due. But can you acknowledge that it is somewhat disconcerting that none of the seven defensive backs we've drafted over the last half decade have panned out? Again, I realize that's not all Lake's fault but don't you think he deserves some of the blame as the DEFENSIVE BACK COACH?

JackAttack 5958, Apr 10, 2015

JackAttack 5958, Apr 10, 2015

#83
Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

44,192

9,976

Oct 16, 2011

JackAttack 5958 said: ↑

I have acknowledged that and I'll give Lake credit where credit is due. But can you acknowledge that it is somewhat disconcerting that none of the seven defensive backs we've drafted over the last half decade have panned out? Again, I realize that's not all Lake's fault but don't you think he deserves some of the blame as the DEFENSIVE BACK COACH?
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Well as I said, it's 4, I don't count guys who weren't on the team.

And as Snack pointed out, did Burnett, Brown and Butler do anything elsewhere? Answer is no. Cortez played well enough to earn a fat contract before taking a step back. He could bounce back. Lewis left for FA, not Lakes fault but played well under him while he was here.

He's had success with players, just not all, what coach does???

Blast Furnace, Apr 11, 2015

Blast Furnace, Apr 11, 2015

#84
HugeSnack Well-Known Member

5,243

103

Oct 17, 2011

JackAttack 5958 said: ↑

I think you're thinking about the friendship between Lewis and Mike Wallace dating back to high school

Excuse the crap out of me, Blast, for WANTING AT LEAST ONE FREAKING DEFENSIVE BACK THAT WE'VE DRAFTED IN THE LAST HALF DECADE TO AT LEAST MAKE SOME MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION TO THE TEAM UNDER LAKE'S TUTELAGE!!!!!

I'm not expecting Lake to make Woodsons and Blounts out of the guys he's had to work with, but I'd like to see some development out of some of these young guys. Where have we finished in pass defense the last couple of seasons? Check it out. It ain't pretty! Does any of the blame for that fall on the shoulders of the secondary coach? I think it does!

It amazes me at how some of you rose colored glasses wearing Pollyannas (looking at you, Blast ) go crazy when someone dares criticize the results of one of your pet coaches by putting up arguments like "Lake can't work miracles", blah, blah, blah, blah, blah! I'm not expecting miracles, I'd just like ONE SERVICEABLE GUY OF THE LAST 7 THAT WE'VE DRAFTED!

And, Snack, you've got waaaay too much time on your hands.
Click to expand...

We all want that. The difference is we aren't throwing blame where it doesn't belong. You mentioned I have too much time, but you didn't do much to address my points. The guys that didn't play well under Lake (all those mid-late rounders) didn't play well anywhere. Meanwhile, guys that didn't play so well under other coaches (Blake, McCain, Gay with other coaches) did play well under Lake.

I don't think it would take me very long to find some guys coached by Mike Munchak that fizzled out of the league because they sucked, do you? What does that say about him as a coach? Nothing. It says something about the players. Direct your anger at Colbert, and to a lesser extent Cowher and Tomlin. They at times didn't try hard enough to address the position, and when they did, they whiffed. And pile on Lake all you want about his scouting. I don't care. I don't blame position coaches for bad scouting. It's not really their job.

Jack, I think you're being obtuse. Not stupid, but obtuse. You're looking at it the way you want to, regardless of the sense it makes. You say, "We've had X guys through here and the results aren't good enough. This guy is the coach, so he's not good enough." BF and I say, "Yeah, but [25 reasons]." If I'm Lake, Colbert came to me and said, "You have to do better with these guys," I'd say, "Excuse me?!?!?! How about I do better with your mom!"

At least that would be the subtext. I'd try not to get fired.

HugeSnack, Apr 11, 2015

HugeSnack, Apr 11, 2015

#85
NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

8,604

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Dec 10, 2012

Some interesting points brought up on this, with us giving Allen the roster bonus he is ours for this year, next year may be a question but this year he is ours. I am not sure what happened to him I am hoping it is all in his head since he did play good enough to get the big contract. Some things I feel have also lead to his down fall and that is we are overlooking the quality of other coaches. The NFL is full of very skilled players but also coaches, lets give a little props to the wr coaches who might picked up a flaw in Allen's game and exploited it. Let's also remember we paid Allen as a #1 guy and I am not sure many people thought he was of #1 talent. He showed promise but he never really showed he was the kind of shut down corner Ike displayed.

Another point is a lot of our corners took a step backwards with maybe the exemption of Gay who since coming back has looked pretty damn good. Why is that, does it have something to do with our pass rush being not as good??? This is where I think a lot of people overlook a lot of our problems, our pass rush has been plain out right bad. Fix the pass rush and you will also fix our pass coverage.

Also add that age and injury has taken it's toll on this defense and you have a pretty good recipe of disaster. I am not sure you can put it on one player or one coach. I think we have had a heck of a run with the players we had and we for some reason haven't found replacement for guys who are now gone or at the end of the line.

All in all this will be a make or break season for Allen and I hope we also find a nice guy in the draft who with the young guys we have develop into good corners and problem solved!

NY STEELERFAN, Apr 11, 2015

NY STEELERFAN, Apr 11, 2015

#86
freakfontana TSF Supporter

5,445

23

Oct 19, 2011

that's is what i thinking too i mean i remember some good games about allen but not to justify a 6 milion a year contract .. maybe i have short memory but to me he was overpaid even before what he did last year

freakfontana, Apr 11, 2015

freakfontana, Apr 11, 2015

#87
mac daddyo Well-Known Member

29,814

6,089

Oct 22, 2011

gay played well since the start. he was a 5th rounder. I'm not giving lake the credit for gay, ok maybe some, but willie has played well before this under different coaches. yes players can get better as they age too. gay's nfl journey is not unlike deshea townsend when he was here. it took him qiute a while to get a starting job here besides being a nickel corner. when given the opportunity to start he played very well.

yes blake and mccain played OK, and I'm not giving them anything more than OK at this point. we were still pretty bad with them and the only way to go was up. lewis took several years to breakout of his funk. nobody is saying that lake should be fired, just that some better play should be coming from this group and that our draft picks should at least make the team out of so many. if not there should be some critiquing of the coach.

it's not like cortez's injury kept him from staying with his man last year, but when the ball got there he was grabbing them not turning around, and frankly looking like he'd never played the position before. they have worked with him quite extensively since he arrived. we are talking about a guy that was to become our #1 corner, yet he ends up under CL under blake and McCain, and that's not saying much. lewis also isn't setting the league on fire in NO if you want to discuss him also. bottom line is we need better results and nobody is saying it's all CL's fault. we are however trying to find out why we can't find some better play from our DB's.

mac daddyo, Apr 11, 2015

mac daddyo, Apr 11, 2015

#88
Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

44,192

9,976

Oct 16, 2011

mac daddyo said: ↑

gay played well since the start. he was a 5th rounder. I'm not giving lake the credit for gay, ok maybe some, but willie has played well before this under different coaches. yes players can get better as they age too. gay's nfl journey is not unlike deshea townsend when he was here. it took him qiute a while to get a starting job here besides being a nickel corner. when given the opportunity to start he played very well.

yes blake and mccain played OK, and I'm not giving them anything more than OK at this point. we were still pretty bad with them and the only way to go was up. lewis took several years to breakout of his funk. nobody is saying that lake should be fired, just that some better play should be coming from this group and that our draft picks should at least make the team out of so many. if not there should be some critiquing of the coach.

it's not like cortez's injury kept him from staying with his man last year, but when the ball got there he was grabbing them not turning around, and frankly looking like he'd never played the position before. they have worked with him quite extensively since he arrived. we are talking about a guy that was to become our #1 corner, yet he ends up under CL under blake and McCain, and that's not saying much. lewis also isn't setting the league on fire in NO if you want to discuss him also. bottom line is we need better results and nobody is saying it's all CL's fault. we are however trying to find out why we can't find some better play from our DB's.
Click to expand...

Lake totally turned Gay around, he was everyone's favorite pinata before he got here. Blake and McCain did very well.

Lewis is in NO now, how does his play reflect on Lake, first of all he is doing well there and secondly, he could be playing even better if he was still with Lake. Gays play dropped off once again the year he left and then his game picked back up again after being reunited with him.

I suspect both Cortez and Mitchel will turn things around this season, 2 more guys you can add to the success column, if those guys fall on their face again and Shark doesn't do well when he gets his chance, then I'll think its fair to dump some criticism on Lake. But because he couldn't turn the hamburger meat known as Brown, Burnett, Frederick, Buttler and two injured players Richardson and Hawthrone into filet mignon, sorry, not dumping that on him.

Blast Furnace, Apr 11, 2015

Blast Furnace, Apr 11, 2015

#89
mac daddyo Well-Known Member

29,814

6,089

Oct 22, 2011
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[TD]2007[/TD]
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PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
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[TD]2008[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
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[TD]2009[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
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[/TR]
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[TD]2010[/TD]
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PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
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[TD]2011[/TD]
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[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49[/TD]
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[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
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I'm not seeing the big drop off you are talking about when willie left here. quite a different group around him at zona. still pretty consistant with how he played here.
mac daddyo, Apr 11, 2015

mac daddyo, Apr 11, 2015

#90
mac daddyo Well-Known Member

29,814

6,089

Oct 22, 2011

another thing I want to throw out there is, in carnells first year here our db's such as lewis and gay and ike and even cortez had some of they're better years. too many tackles though by our corners. I've noticed as our safeties have digressed, our corners have gotten steadily worse. I have been saying for awhile now and still believe if we fix the backend we will get better play from our corners. bringing back will allen isn't going to help this. we need some safeties to right this ship.

mac daddyo, Apr 11, 2015

mac daddyo, Apr 11, 2015

#91
PWP Well-Known Member

5,930

465

Oct 26, 2011

A lot talk about Cortez and him being hurt and him just having a bad year . I agree with these ,but a thumb should not lead a CB to play as bad as he did. I contend the move up in Talent he was asked to guard had a lot more to do with his poor play than anything else.

Others state he had played well before and just took a big step back. Again a step back or a step up into more than he could or he can handle ?

We have a bunch of money tied up in him so if he is to contribute the Team better get him matched up on 3rd. and 4th. options where he belongs . Cortez is just like Gay , both have good value as a Nickle or Dime CB but both are doomed for failure against 95% of the NFL #1 and #2 WR'S.

PWP, Apr 11, 2015

PWP, Apr 11, 2015

#92
SteelerGlenn TSF Supporter

21,324

4,815

Nov 24, 2011

mac daddyo said: ↑

another thing I want to throw out there is, in carnells first year here our db's such as lewis and gay and ike and even cortez had some of they're better years. too many tackles though by our corners. I've noticed as our safeties have digressed, our corners have gotten steadily worse. I have been saying for awhile now and still believe if we fix the backend we will get better play from our corners. bringing back will allen isn't going to help this. we need some safeties to right this ship.
Click to expand...

As a Starter you're right W. Allen is probably not going to help turn things around, but for depth he absolutely will be an asset.

SteelerGlenn, Apr 11, 2015

SteelerGlenn, Apr 11, 2015

#93
PWP Well-Known Member

5,930

465

Oct 26, 2011

mac daddyo said: ↑

another thing I want to throw out there is, in carnells first year here our db's such as lewis and gay and ike and even cortez had some of they're better years. too many tackles though by our corners. I've noticed as our safeties have digressed, our corners have gotten steadily worse. I have been saying for awhile now and still believe if we fix the backend we will get better play from our corners. bringing back will allen isn't going to help this. we need some safeties to right this ship.
Click to expand...

I agree with this as well. We need to change our approach and get a FS that has true FS skills. Be the last line of Defense and have speed and ball skills. I am affraid the Team is still looking for guys who can help more than they should in run support.

PWP, Apr 11, 2015

PWP, Apr 11, 2015

#94
D0bre Shunka Well-Known Member

3,505

506

Jan 24, 2012

Some elephant sized post here.

Cortez A. better show this year why so many are enamored with him. Don't care whether it's mental, physical or a combination of the two, I want results!

D0bre Shunka, Apr 11, 2015

D0bre Shunka, Apr 11, 2015

#95
HugeSnack Well-Known Member

5,243

103

Oct 17, 2011
mac daddyo said: ↑

[TABLE="class: tablehead"]
[TR="class: stathead"]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Defensive Stats[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 17"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: colhead"]
[TD]SEASON[/TD]
[TD]TEAM[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]GP[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]COMB[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]TOTAL[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]AST[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]SACK[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FF[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FR[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]YDS[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]INT[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]YDS[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]AVG[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]LNG[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]TD[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]PD[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]STF[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]STFYDS[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]KB[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: oddrow"]
[TD]2007[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: evenrow"]
[TD]2008[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: oddrow"]
[TD]2009[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: evenrow"]
[TD]2010[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: oddrow"]
[TD]2011[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: evenrow"]
[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]

ARI

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: oddrow"]
[TD]2013[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]55[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: evenrow"]
[TD]2014[/TD]
[TD]

PIT

[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]69[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]113[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]38[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Career[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]128[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]436[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]363[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]73[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]165[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]70[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm not seeing the big drop off you are talking about when willie left here. quite a different group around him at zona. still pretty consistant with how he played here.
Click to expand...

"Gay played well before Lake, so I'm not giving Lake credit for that."

What, like once every 10 games?? Gay was promising early on going against the lower levels of competition, and to say he fell FLAT on his face when given the chance is an understatement. He was an absolute team-killer as a starter. He was picked apart by anyone that tried.

And what are you trying to prove by showing stats? CB stats are nearly useless unless you look at the play behind them. The best CBs usually have few INTs because no one throws the ball at them. Gay had few because he wasn't good enough to get them. To be exact, he had zero before Lake arrived, except for one on what was essentially a hail mary. He had a ton of tackles, though, because he was a decent tackler who couldn't stop a completion to save his life.

2009 was the low point. He was demoted and his flaws were less obvious for a year. Then Lake arrived and he became a playable player. I don't know much about his year in Arizona except they cut him 1 year into a 3 year contract. Then he came back to Lake where he got better each year.

Those seem like the bare facts to me. Suggesting he was any kind of asset instead of liability pre-Lake is revisionist history. And comparing him to Townsend is completely unfair to Townsend. He might be at that level now, but Townsend was always an asset they just didn't want to be a starter. Reminds me of Hines Ward - never really did anything wrong, but they kept trying to replace him. Gay, on the other hand, was terrible, and one of those rare players that the fans aren't wrong for scapegoating (see Cam Thomas).
HugeSnack, Apr 11, 2015

HugeSnack, Apr 11, 2015

#96
Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

44,192

9,976

Oct 16, 2011

HugeSnack said: ↑

"Gay played well before Lake, so I'm not giving Lake credit for that."

What, like once every 10 games?? Gay was promising early on going against the lower levels of competition, and to say he fell FLAT on his face when given the chance is an understatement. He was an absolute team-killer as a starter. He was picked apart by anyone that tried.

And what are you trying to prove by showing stats? CB stats are nearly useless unless you look at the play behind them. The best CBs usually have few INTs because no one throws the ball at them. Gay had few because he wasn't good enough to get them. To be exact, he had zero before Lake arrived, except for one on what was essentially a hail mary. He had a ton of tackles, though, because he was a decent tackler who couldn't stop a completion to save his life.

2009 was the low point. He was demoted and his flaws were less obvious for a year. Then Lake arrived and he became a playable player. I don't know much about his year in Arizona except they cut him 1 year into a 3 year contract. Then he came back to Lake where he got better each year.

Those seem like the bare facts to me. Suggesting he was any kind of asset instead of liability pre-Lake is revisionist history. And comparing him to Townsend is completely unfair to Townsend. He might be at that level now, but Townsend was always an asset they just didn't want to be a starter. Reminds me of Hines Ward - never really did anything wrong, but they kept trying to replace him. Gay, on the other hand, was terrible, and one of those rare players that the fans aren't wrong for scapegoating (see Cam Thomas).
Click to expand...

x2

He's totally better player.

Blast Furnace, Apr 11, 2015

Blast Furnace, Apr 11, 2015

#97
JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

13,091

2,478

Oct 18, 2011

mac daddyo said: ↑

gay played well since the start. he was a 5th rounder. I'm not giving lake the credit for gay, ok maybe some, but willie has played well before this under different coaches. yes players can get better as they age too. gay's nfl journey is not unlike deshea townsend when he was here. it took him qiute a while to get a starting job here besides being a nickel corner. when given the opportunity to start he played very well.

yes blake and mccain played OK, and I'm not giving them anything more than OK at this point. we were still pretty bad with them and the only way to go was up. lewis took several years to breakout of his funk. nobody is saying that lake should be fired, just that some better play should be coming from this group and that our draft picks should at least make the team out of so many. if not there should be some critiquing of the coach.

it's not like cortez's injury kept him from staying with his man last year, but when the ball got there he was grabbing them not turning around, and frankly looking like he'd never played the position before. they have worked with him quite extensively since he arrived. we are talking about a guy that was to become our #1 corner, yet he ends up under CL under blake and McCain, and that's not saying much. lewis also isn't setting the league on fire in NO if you want to discuss him also. bottom line is we need better results and nobody is saying it's all CL's fault. we are however trying to find out why we can't find some better play from our DB's.
Click to expand...

That's all I'm trying to say. Thanks for summing it up nicely, mac.

Blast Furnace said: ↑

Lake totally turned Gay around, he was everyone's favorite pinata before he got here. Blake and McCain did very well.

Lewis is in NO now, how does his play reflect on Lake, first of all he is doing well there and secondly, he could be playing even better if he was still with Lake. Gays play dropped off once again the year he left and then his game picked back up again after being reunited with him.

I suspect both Cortez and Mitchel will turn things around this season, 2 more guys you can add to the success column, if those guys fall on their face again and Shark doesn't do well when he gets his chance, then I'll think its fair to dump some criticism on Lake. But because he couldn't turn the hamburger meat known as Brown, Burnett, Frederick, Buttler and two injured players Richardson and Hawthrone into filet mignon, sorry, not dumping that on him.
Click to expand...

I'd settle for nice, juicy hamburger from our defensive back group, doesn't have to be filet. It's just that far too often over the last few seasons, we've gotten spam.

JackAttack 5958, Apr 11, 2015

JackAttack 5958, Apr 11, 2015

#98
JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

13,091

2,478

Oct 18, 2011

HugeSnack said: ↑

We all want that. The difference is we aren't throwing blame where it doesn't belong. You mentioned I have too much time, but you didn't do much to address my points. The guys that didn't play well under Lake (all those mid-late rounders) didn't play well anywhere. Meanwhile, guys that didn't play so well under other coaches (Blake, McCain, Gay with other coaches) did play well under Lake.

I don't think it would take me very long to find some guys coached by Mike Munchak that fizzled out of the league because they sucked, do you? What does that say about him as a coach? Nothing. It says something about the players. Direct your anger at Colbert, and to a lesser extent Cowher and Tomlin. They at times didn't try hard enough to address the position, and when they did, they whiffed. And pile on Lake all you want about his scouting. I don't care. I don't blame position coaches for bad scouting. It's not really their job.

Jack, I think you're being obtuse. Not stupid, but obtuse. You're looking at it the way you want to, regardless of the sense it makes. You say, "We've had X guys through here and the results aren't good enough. This guy is the coach, so he's not good enough." BF and I say, "Yeah, but [25 reasons]." If I'm Lake, Colbert came to me and said, "You have to do better with these guys," I'd say, "Excuse me?!?!?! How about I do better with your mom!"

At least that would be the subtext. I'd try not to get fired.
Click to expand...

And that seems to be our major source of contention here, Snack. I don't necessarily disagree with many of your points and even a few of Blast's (just please don't tell him, lol). But I do believe if we hire a position coach and we don't get the kind of results out of the players under that coach's venue, the coach HAS TO bear some of the responsibility and get some of the blame. I may be wrong, but it seems that you don't want to put any of the responsibility on Lake's shoulders. Are there other factors? Sure. Obviously, our scouting group and front office has dropped the ball somewhere along the way. Maybe DL's schemes were not conducive to the personnel in the defensive backfield, I don't know. There are other factors, no doubt. But Lake gets paid to make NFL caliber defensive backs out of the corners and safeties in Black & Gold and I've been more than a little disappointed with the results of late.

JackAttack 5958, Apr 11, 2015

JackAttack 5958, Apr 11, 2015

#99
HugeSnack Well-Known Member

5,243

103

Oct 17, 2011

JackAttack 5958 said: ↑

And that seems to be our major source of contention here, Snack. I don't necessarily disagree with many of your points and even a few of Blast's (just please don't tell him, lol). But I do believe if we hire a position coach and we don't get the kind of results out of the players under that coach's venue, the coach HAS TO bear some of the responsibility and get some of the blame. I may be wrong, but it seems that you don't want to put any of the responsibility on Lake's shoulders. Are there other factors? Sure. Obviously, our scouting group and front office has dropped the ball somewhere along the way. Maybe DL's schemes were not conducive to the personnel in the defensive backfield, I don't know. There are other factors, no doubt. But Lake gets paid to make NFL caliber defensive backs out of the corners and safeties in Black & Gold and I've been more than a little disappointed with the results of late.
Click to expand...

It's often hard for us to know how much a position coach is helping or hurting. If Lake was having NO success, then maybe I'd question how much was him vs. the talent drafted. But he has done a lot of good things; he just hasn't been able to polish all the turds. I'm impressed by all the good he's done, and given the lack of success our CB dropouts went on to have, and Colbert's track record at the CB position, I don't feel like I have a choice but to give Lake a total pass on guys like Burnett, Richardson, Butler, Frederick, etc. Or at least a near-total pass.

HugeSnack, Apr 11, 2015

HugeSnack, Apr 11, 2015

#100

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