Mt. Rushmore - we are spoiled

I live in Charlotte, so most of my sports radio revolves around the Panthers. They were doing their Mt. Rushmore debate this AM. It just was sad. The only person they could agree on....Steve Smith. After that it was a hodge podge and I didn't hear anyone that would be in our top 20.

How spoiled are we? We could do this with the greats for multiple positions let alone the team.

For instance:

WR: Swann, Stallworth, Ward, Lipps
RB: Franco, Rocky, Bettis, ???
DL: Mean Joe, A. Smith
LB: Ham, Lambert, Harrison,
DB: Troy, Blount,

I think it would be fun to sort of rank our top for at each position in our history. We have guys all over the place who have been stars in the NFL let alone for us. We have to keep guys off of our list, they are having trouble finding guys for on it.

 

LOLOLOLOL!!! This is the third time that this thread has been started and EVERY TIME I SEE IT I think they've finally reached a conclusion of who should be on it! LOLOLOL! When will I ever learn? But yes you are right that it's basically impossible. When I originally saw it I think I said Lambert, Troy, Mean Joe, and I can't even remember the other one. It would really depend on what day you ask me. LOL.

 

In all fairness the Panthers don't have the long history in the league that we and most NFL teams have. But yeah, we're stacked with possibilities

 

I think you might be missing the point. The point was not that we can narrow it down to just 4 guys, the point was that we could do 4 guys just at the LB position or at the RB position.

 

Did Tim Biakabutuka make it??

Panthers:
Steve Smith, Muhsin Muhammed, Wesley Walls, Julius Peppers

Steelers:

QB - Bradshaw, Ben, Antwaan Randle El (career passer rating of 156.1)
RB - Bettis, Harris, Bleier, John Henry Johnson, and an extra mountain you have to walk past to get to this one, Dan Kreider
WR - Swann, Stallworth, Ward, Lipps
TE - Miller, Nickel
OL - Dawson, Webster, Faneca, (help me out here guys - Tunch? Kolb?)
DL - Greene, Smith, Stautner, Hampton, White, Greenwood
LB - Lambert, Ham, Russell, Harrison
DB - Polamalu, Blount, Woodson, Lake, Shell, Butler

S - G. Anderson, Woodson

Extras - Noll, Cowher, LeBeau, ___ Rooney

So it's worth noting that we are short two men at QB, and another two at TE. However, we have a surplus of two men at DL and another two at DB. So if you just shift Donnie Shell and Jack Butler to tight end, and Casey Hampton and L.C. Greenwood to quarterback, we have an even 4 across the board.

If I were to pick 4 guys to make it to the Overall Mt. Rushmore (and limit it to players so things don't get too wonky)... at first I was overwhelmed looking at the list, but then it got easier. Forced to make the tough decisions, it actually wasn't that hard to cast aside my personal favorites. When including talent, symbolism, overall effect, my first three choices were easy:

Troy Polamalu, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert

After that I could go a number of directions. Plenty of people consider Jack Ham to be an even better all around linebacker than Lambert. Quarterbacks are important, but neither Bradshaw nor Ben are as good at their position as these guys are at theirs. And I dislike them both personally. Heath Miller and Aaron Smith make a strong case for themselves with their persona and quiet, unrecognized servitude, and to me they are both contenders to be called the greatest at their positions all-time, when you look at their specific positions (Miller as a tight end, if you give equal weight to blocking and receiving, and Smith as a 5-tech, not "defensive end"). Then you have others. Mel Blount was a badass if ever there was one. Woodson was great but not around for enough of his career. Everyone loves the RBs, but none of them are really in the conversation for greatest of all time the way the first three men on the mountain are. Although Bettis does represent the team well. Dawson and Webster could be the greatest of all time. Great choices there. Swann and Stallworth were great parts of a great team, and Ward had that edge to his game that made him special. Still, I keep coming back to one guy, and it's a guy I never saw play and also never spent much time thinking about. Not only is Mel Blount in the conversation for greatest cornerback in NFL history, he did it in the most badass way possible. He kicked everyone's ass - nice and legally - so that they couldn't do squat against him. Then the league got fed up with his "loophole," changed the rules so he couldn't do it anymore, and he remained the best. He beat them at their own game. As a bonus that I didn't expect, the numbers show he was a great return man. The one year he had a significant number of kick returns (18) he averaged 30 yards per return. He has 1 punt return in his career, and it went for 52 yards. No big deal, but I thought it was cool. The talent, the toughness, and the best-no-matter-what-you-do-to-stop-me is what gets him on the mountain for me. And for a second I thought about the fact that my entire mountain was defense and I should probably have an offensive player in there, but then I thought, Nah, four defenders is about right. And if I hadn't gone for Blount, it would have been Ham.

 

I would think Julius peppers would have to be on the panthers mt rushmore

 

Snack, I like the way you think.
After all, DEEE-FENSE really is what we built our reputation on...
Sure, we have been able to score points, here and there, but you would never mistake us with the Niners of Montana,
Or the Chargers of "Air Coreyele"(sp), or "The greatest show on turf", the Rams, of a decade or so ago...Or whatever other high scoring teams have come along(Just hate to mention the never let yer foot off the gas, Cheatriots), Or Brees, and the Saints...(OK, gotta give the latest incarnation of the Pack, their due. They deserve it).
What set us apart, is we could stop, ANY of those tams from scoring more than 10 or so points, and we could usually find a way to score just enough more.
However...
I believe Greg Lloyd deserves a spot among those defenders.
Silverback was my dude, but he really didn`t play here very long, at least as a starter...
Troy... I dunno... That`s tough...
He has made some of the most incredible plays ever made by a Steeler safety, but, I just can`t help wishing he could have stayed healthy more, and been in even more games.
So, I guess my 4 DEFENSIVE players would have to be Joe Geene, Jack Lambert, Mel Blount(although, I don`t feel right leaving Donnie Shell off the list), and Greg Lloyd.
Although, that is CERTAINLY debatable.
Peezy didn`t even make the list, and he played lights out here for quite a while, carrying on the INTIMIDATION, thing,
Gildon, was solid, but probably not "mountain worthy"...
What a great thing to argue about!!!LOL!
(And I`m sure many, many others slipped my mind, but I just got called to dinner... C_ya!)

 

It's a shame Harrison got started so late, but he didn't exactly have a short reign. Harrison started for 6 years, Lloyd for 8. Lloyd played for a little longer, but Harrison played much better. Both were intimidators. Lloyd was loud. Harrison was better. He had a much bigger impact on the field. Some people like words better than actions, but Harrison was better against the run, rushing the passer, and he was clean, not dirty. I'll take Harrison over Lloyd any day.

Troy has missed a lot of time due to injuries, but that doesn't mean he's played a short time. It's not about percentage of games played, is it? He's played in 130 out of 160 games. Bummer about the missing 30, but he still played in 130, didn't he? And he was a miracle worker in those. So let's judge him by that. That's my take.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LloyGr00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PolaTr99.htm

 

OK, I will concede, I must be falling victim, to sort of a "what have you done for me lately" attitude, esp about Troy.
As for Silverback, it`s kinda different...
Hard to believe he started for us for the last six years, maybe just because he was only making media headlines the last 3...
As for "dirty"...
I won`t even get into that.
I want my players to hit, and hit HARD!!!....
I don`t think Greg, OR James, took cheapshots, after the whistle(Any more than any other player), or tried to INJURE an opponent, by aiming for a knee, or weakpoint, like that...
As for being "Vocal"... Hell yes, James was vocal... what do you think got him in so much trouble with the commish?
Speaking his mind!!!(I have NO problem with that)...
I do agree, that actions speak louder than words, and I think BOTH of them did their loudest talking, that way... On the field.
Overall, it`s just kinda wierd, I guess, since it`s been so long since the older players played, I don`t think about the shortcomings they may have had, or about how they were playing in their later years, just because the newer ones are fresher in my memory.
That probably doesn`t make much sense, but it`s as clear as I can put it into words.
For instance, I don`t think of Lambert as the guy that retired because of a broken toe...
I think of him as the intimidator, in the middle of the Superbowl Champion defense...
Fair, or not...
Farther down the road... Hindsight, will probably paint a much better(and fairer), picture of Troy, and Harrison...
GO STEELERS!

 

I knew I'd had this conversation before, so I looked it up. Here was my answer in a thread from a few months ago:

When you combine the FF and INTs, Harrison comes out on top. If you break it down, Harrison had more FF but Lloyd more INTs. Lloyd did average more tackles per game. I said I think that the sack numbers are overrated, and I definitely do, but Harrison is far enough ahead of him that I think those numbers mean something. I saw them both play too, and I think that Harrison was by far the better pass rusher and run defender. I give Lloyd the edge in coverage, but that is the least important part of the job in my opinion.

Sacks
Lloyd - 0.39 per start (6.3 per 16 games)
Harrison - 0.67 per start (10.8 per 16 games)

FF
Lloyd - 0.25 per start (4 per 16 games)
Harrison - 0.31 per start (4.96 per 16 games)

INT
Lloyd - 0.08 per start (1.28 per 16 games)
Harrison - 0.05 per start (0.8 per 16 games)

Tackles
Lloyd - 5.09 per start (81 per 16 games)
Harrison - 4.75 per start (76 per 16 games)

I think of Harrison as a completely clean player, and I can't say that about Lloyd. And Harrison sure wasn't quiet when giving interviews to magazines, but I don't remember hearing him talk a lot of smack on the field like I do Lloyd. I'm not saying there's no place for guys that do - I know a lot of Steelers loved what Porter brought - I just can't stand it personally and prefer players to put that effort into their play.

 

So what you're doing is counting Harrison's early years as an undrafted free agent and backup against him. Lloyd was a draft pick, so the team had higher incentive to get him on the field. Now we're going back to college performance. Harrison supposedly had trouble grasping the offense, which hurt hum early (not that it would have made a difference, with Porter and Gildon on the team). The team didn't know what they had until '07, which was clear because they drafted Timmons to replace him.

I'm saying that if you compare Harrison's field time against Lloyd's field time, Harrison was a better player. If you want to say Lloyd was a better player because he earned more field time, that's one way to look at it. I don't think Emmitt Smith was better than Barry Sanders either, but you could say Emmitt was more dedicated, or gave more to his team, or whatever, because he played an extra 5 years or whatever it was. But mano a mano, Barry was better.

 

Woodson!? I know SB xXx is worth blocking out but...
Man I sure did want that logo on some hats and shirts that didn't make me cringe.

 

Barry Sanders was the greatest rb of all time I say. But as for Harrison and Lloyd I really think that if Kevin Greene could have stuck around that he would have been great too. Free agency took some sack machines away from us and if you're looking at it from a sack standpoint Kevin Greene was the absolute man. I mean hes been a HOF finalist multiple times and has Lloyd ever been one? Greg Lloyd was awesome but I think Greene was just as good from a sack perspective. Also I think I would maybe take Harrison over Lloyd just because of his play in the Super Bowl. LOL. But that really was a smart play though.

 

Yeah?? Well!! We are at an impasse!!

Another lame BF/HS debate fizzles to an end...

 

Greene definitely would have been in the conversation, but he only played 3 seasons for the Steelers. It seemed like more to me, but I looked it up and it was only 3.