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Keith Butler

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Chinchilla, Dec 10, 2021.

  1. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    Ok but if you go back to seasons where we did have a healthy defense, they still got smoked. The system is antiquated and leaves huge gaps that receivers easily run right through. I realize the NFL is offense heavy so all teams have to deal with that. But it's rampantly noticeable here.
     
  2. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    So TB hasn't carved up the 4-3 or quarter defenses? Your logic is flawed. If every coordinator that Brady made a fool was fired there wouldn't be any left. DL ran some of the best defenses in the league for many years. Now every team in the league uses at least some of his schemes . Plenty of teams still use the 3-4 and with success. The only other team I can think of known for great defense over the past 20 years is the Ravens.... guess what scheme they used during those years?

    Good Qb's carving us up at will now has zero to do with DL. First off...good qbs carve up everyone...that's why they're called good qb's. secondly our problems now are blatantly obvious. The defense fell apart as soon as we lost our NT. I mentioned several times that losing our NT could be a devastating injury to our team. The NT play is the heart and sole of the 3-4. Shame on the steelers for having zero depth at the position. This is why the packers sucked trying to run the 3-4 under McCarthy...they missed on their 1st round NT and ILB draft picks and it ultimately cost that coaching staff their jobs way back when. (Aj Hawk and Justin Harrel). They followed those two clowns with Clay Mathews and BJ Raji and won the SB in 2010. What the packers went through then is exactly what is happening to us now. We anchored our season on a 34 year Old NT and prayed Bush would be good. Well Bush is a disaster and the pick up of Schobert has been a failure. Put two bad ILB's behind a terrible NT and the entire defense collapses. The reason IMO we are historically bad right now is the fact that our SS is probably least physical strong safety in the league. We drafted him and Bush to cover TE's...those two are not physical against the run and it's brutal to watch now.

    Before we signed Alulua our defense sucked. What 2 personnel groups have we basically ignored over the last 10 years? O-line and D-line. What happened? We actually have the personnel to be solid in pass coverage right now.... I'd say we could actually be dominant in pass coverage right now if we could stop the run. What happened in buffalo was an example. When your run defense collapses you are screwed. Our personnel right now dictates we use the 3-4 base. Watt was born to play it. You don't make him the highest paid defensive player in the league and then abandon the scheme. Fixing our defense will require new players on the D-line and ILB. I think we need an entirely new coaching staff but that has nothing to do with the schemes we use.

    My heart says I hope we draft a WR and SS with our first two picks... my brain says we should draft an OT and NT. Tomlin has fallen in love with the sexy players on draft day vs the smart players... this is the result.
     
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  3. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    Those large cushions are a different argument. Most of our DBs back then were not going to run with most WR's in the NFL. They excelled at tackling. Its a chess match and you use the players you have. We dominated against the run most years but struggled against the pass. There were years were we dominated both and the NFL changed the rules partly because of DL's dominance.

    I dream of what this defense would be if we had Casey Hampton, James Farrior, and a half way decent SS. With Watt on that team.. holy smokes. Problem is now we are probably 2 years away from a rebuild. We need a NT, DT, ILB X2, and a SS. You can plug half of those..but all of them. I hope the team uses FA more than ever...and bring in a new coaching staff. Besides the obvious personnel issues we have.. the over all personality of this team is crap. The culture is poison. That requires a total coaching over haul IMO. Lack of detail, lack of football IQ, sloppiness, and undisciplined football have been around Tomlin's teams for 10 years.
     
  4. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    If your QB sucks...do you stop using a QB? That's basically what you are saying.. The NT, both ILB's and SS suck...so we should change the scheme? Uh ok.. I guess if you want to bring in players that can excel at another scheme...sure. Does the scheme we use not work in today's NFL? With plenty of teams using it with success, I kind of think that's not the problem. We just gave Watt a record contract... The guy was born to play OLB in a 3-4. We have Highsmith and Cam who are also true 3-4 guys. Maybe our biggest problem is the D line ...so you think we should go to a scheme that is more D-line dependent? Seriously?

    We need a NT and DT. We need 2 ILB's. I don't care what defense you use... when you miss on a 1st rnd pick like Bush and lose a 1st round pick like Shazier...it's gonna be bad. I'd also argue we missed on Edmunds... or at least it's fair to say he was a mistake. We didn't need a coverage SS. We need a physical SS. We over reacted to the fact that our LB's were getting destroyed by the Patriots and Ravens TE's and WR's over the middle. We flinched into a trap IMO... now we have an undersized weak defense that is built to be ran over like a bug hitting a windshield. This team was built with SERIOUS personnel issues. On both sides of the ball. When that happens you usually end up with a top 5 pick.
     
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  5. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    Again I wasn't referring to 3-4 vs. 4-3, you're oversimplifying what I said. But if you can't see that most teams have figured out what we do even with a healthy team, idk what else to tell you. It's a problem.
     
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  6. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    Yes!!! It's called working with the hand you are dealt. And if you gotta adjust it the next year when you get better players then so be it. The days of Casey Hampton, Farrior, Harrison are long over. Why do we have to keep rehashing the past?
     
  7. chris2fer

    chris2fer Well-Known Member

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    The first day Tomlin tells me he’s calling the Defense that’s the day I quit.
     
  8. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    No matter the scheme we choose you still need a NT, DT, LB, etc. The players suck no matter what scheme you choose. If you think fixing this defense is just a matter of changing schemes then you be delusional. There's zero evidence that that the scheme is the problem. Just because our defense is a disaster does not mean it's the fault of the scheme.. It only means the players and coaches are not getting it done. Changing scheme in one offseason does not usually go well. It requires big over haul and we just gave Watt the biggest contract ever given to a defensive player. Pretty sure that means we aint going to change the whole scheme.

    The other scheme options are more d-line dependent to stop the run and rush the Qb. What on earth makes you think that's gonna work with our roster? lol

    The NFL is a coaches league. The best teams use largely the same schemes but with different results. Which is why I'm saying the issues are personnel and coaching. Good coaches win no matter who they're playing...and good coaches can compete with back ups. We have been watching a total meltdown over the loss of a NT and horrible play from our ILB's. that should not happen.
     
  9. Lambert

    Lambert Well-Known Member

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    Draft Front 7 heavy. Add a FA CB and S. Hire Rex.
     
  10. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    When a player runs himself out of a Play, or takes His own teammates out of the play. It's not a scheme problem....it's a player problem. My Friend. Get You a copy of just the last game, and just watch the Defense. Use frame advance. You will see this. 3 players totally did this at a big clip .
     
  11. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    I assume you’re referring to Bush, Schobert and Edmunds?
     
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  12. SteelerNole

    SteelerNole Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it has more to do with personnel than scheme. LeBeau’s defenses weren’t soft. He’s guys are soft.
     
  13. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Also Highsmith did it a few times. Not bagging on anyone of them , but it's clear 2 see on different plays. :thumbs_up:
     
  14. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    Lebeau's defenses worked great if the QB was inexperienced or just plain mediocre. But against skilled opponents, they got gashed in passing. The disguised blitzes and such were new and took teams by surprise in its day. Now, not so much. Teams teach even young QBs how to handle it much better than those days. It's like a magician who keeps doing a trick he's done for years and years and then is surprised when nobody is amazed by it anymore.
     
  15. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    My Friend. I believe You would be surprised at How Many different wrinkles He brought 2 the table every game in the day. Yes it was His basic D most of the time , but He had plays for certain circumstances, and Different for Different teams. If I could find the clip of them talking about this with James F. I would post it.
     
  16. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    All I know is that come Tom Brady time he torched the vaunted Lebeau defenses consistently. Yeah I know TB has done that to a lot of teams but those other teams at least had some containment. Brady himself commented on how predictable the Steelers defense. ******* or not, you should take notice when someone of his caliber says that.
     
  17. defva

    defva Well-Known Member

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    Tomlin is only as good as his assistants. I think, he's the first head coach, that I know of, to come in and keep all of the assistants from the previous head coach. Would've kept the Wiz and Grimm if they didn't move on to the cardinals. With that being said, Tomlin is dealing with a watered down version of what he inherited.
     
  18. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I take it with some of those times....His words not mine.....I had the answer 2 the test.....cheating. I believe He also Went undefeated one Year....So he pretty much torched every D in the league. Also if We were so easily predictable He would never ever lose 2 Us. I know He beat us a bunch, but He's not undefeated against us. If I was saying a team was so predictable....I believe I would beat them every time. Also one of His wins He started, but got knocked out of the game. I'm sure You remember. He didn't score jack. D. Bledsoe did, and their Special teams.
     
  19. bradshaw12

    bradshaw12 Well-Known Member

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    At the end of the day, IF Alualu and Tuitt are in the starting lineup, this is a potentially great d. My biggest problem with Butler, or whomever is calling the defenses, is the lack of aggression. Other than a late game desperation situation, when do the Steelers ever bring more than five? Every once in a while, bring the house.
     
  20. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    He's 9-3 against the Steelers, and the vast majority of those wins were blowouts. Not close games. You seem to be hung up on the many wrinkles Lebeau brought to the table. Who cares. Let's say Brady did cheat, ok why didn't any of those wrinkles change the outcome? At the end of the day, his defense lost to Tim Tebow. Tim frickin Tebow. Lebeau was a great guy and all but his system was and still is completely overrated.
     
  21. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    He’s the assistant head coach.
     
  22. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I heard, just odd you never see or hear much of him. I thought he retired.

    I mean you would think the assistant head coach would be on the field from time to time.
     
  23. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    Because all players are interchangeable
     
  24. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    So Belichicks got beat by Cam Newton everytime He played them. Does that mean Belichick D sucked, or they just weren't going 2 change it just because they were playing Cam??? I don't think Cam has ever beat us. All I'm saying is You can't judge a Defense by what one player does 2 you. Also Belichicks D lost 2 Mark Sanchez....in the playoffs....LoL. That's no worse than Tebow.
    Also if We were playing in Pittsburgh Ryan Clark could have played and Tebow doesn't win.
     
  25. bradshaw12

    bradshaw12 Well-Known Member

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    The Patriots owned the Steelers because we refused to adjust to their offense. You can't play bend but don't break defense, against an offense that perfected the dink and dunk offense, and did not make mistakes.
     
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