Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

I'd like to see how all that discipline, being more studious, and dependability would do behind a **** offensive line when it's 8 degrees outside in snow and 30 mph winds in Baltimore and New England and facing real defenses on a regular basis?

Something tells me he wouldn't be as dependable as you think, and his numbers sure as $hit wouldn't look as good. I guess that means he wouldn't win as many individual awards either, but hey....

Payton did a lot of heavy lifting with the Saints and made Brees a great quarterback in his system. Brees was not a great player until he played for Payton. He was very average his first five seasons in the NFL. I guess he wasn't studious, disciplined, conscientious, and dependable those first five years huh? Sure sounds like coaching and an offensive system had a lot to do with his success.

Payton is now making Bo Nix look like he's pretty good. It's what great offensive head coaches do.

Brees was a great player, but there are a lot of reasons why he had a lot of help putting up big numbers.

The Vikings being his daddy in the playoffs doesn't help your argument. There really weren't dominant teams in the NFC stopping the Saints from having more success. Ben and the Steelers were going to and winning Super Bowls playing in the same conference as the dominant Patriots teams with Brady and Peyton Manning in Indianapolis. The team that got rid of Drew Brees for Philip Rivers never got it done because they couldn't hack it in the conference because of the other guys they had to go through. Ben was one of those guys. So while Ben was getting it done and leading his team to championships in a historically strong AFC against what everyone thinks are two of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, Brees could only get to one Super Bowl in a gettable conference where the Seahawks were probably the best team over a number of years, but Brees could not get past some very beatable teams in the NFC while having some of his strongest teams. Same for Rodgers with some very good teams. He also only made it to one Super Bowl. They underachieved in the playoffs.