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Bush

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Disco1981, Nov 21, 2021.

  1. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a problem with what Butler said.
     
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  2. JAD

    JAD Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a problem with what Butler said either. He said what we been saying this year about Bush. "Has to run to the ball like everybody else" is really bad for a middle linebacker. Also he mention that he is not learning fast enough about the fronts and learning coverages. Other middle linebackers picked around the same time don't have this problem, Dadgum it.
     
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  3. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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  4. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Bush is both infuriating and puzzling. He didn’t lack for effort before this season. He was an ascending player. Maybe not a guy who looked like a Top 10 pick, but definitely a guy who looked like he was developing into at least an above average starter. The off-season weirdness, coupled with the lack of effort, football IQ, etc. that we’re seeing this year has me wondering what the heck changed since the injury. A torn ACL isn’t a brain injury…
     
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  5. troybellringer55

    troybellringer55 Well-Known Member

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    I think its a combo of Bush not being right with the knee still, he also seems frustrated, which mentally doesn't help.

    But also understand, when you run a 3-4 defense, you need some stud muffins in the 3 down linemen. Cam Heyward is a stud muffin.

    Isiah Buggs, Chris Wormley, Loudermilk, and Mondeuax aren't stud muffins, they are serviceable, though I feel Loudermilk has some good upside.

    Not having Tuitt (stud muffin), and Tyson in there hurts. I've never seen a season were so many running backs hit the linebacker level and full speed, which means they are getting through breakdowns in the d-line to hit that level full blow.

    Linebackers get to make solid stops and good plays, when the D-line is destroying the blocks on the O-Line.

    But, even with this Bush does need to play better than he is playing bottom line.
     
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  6. chris2fer

    chris2fer Well-Known Member

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    There are 4 Offensive linemen who are free agents none are worth keeping maybe 1 . Joe Haden is a UFA he’s ok but a younger guy would be better Edmunds is gone needs replaced and the D line needs help and we need a QB. What’s missing ? Linebackers need to be better basically we need help all over the field.
     
  7. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    This exactly :this!:
     
  8. OX1947

    OX1947 Well-Known Member

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    2012 - David DeCastro....Pro Bowler GONE
    2013 - Jarvis Jones....BUST....GONE
    2014 - Ryan Shazier....GONE....would have been a star
    2015 - Bud Dupree....GONE
    2016 - Artie Burns....BUST.....GONE
    2017 - TJ Watt....STAR
    2018 - Terrell Edmunds....BUST.....WILL BE GONE
    2019 - Devin Bush.....Looking like a BUST
    2020 - 1st rounder for Fitzpatrick.......Average since he has been in Pittsburgh after a good start
    2021 - Najee Harris....Likely pro bowler when the line matures

    These are the 1st rounders from the last decade. Shazier and Watt were DOPY type stars. One made it, one didn't. DeCastro was very good, but he isn't here anymore. Dupree sucked the first 3 years then played well for 1.5 years after that, he isn't here anymore.

    Fitzpatrick looked to be a great trade his first year and has regressed mightily. Why? Well, he is being used like Polamalu and his strong suit is trying to play like Ed Reed.

    Continuity is non-existent with the team. Big Ben is great but he isn't a leader, he never really was. You had Hines and Jerome and Polamalu in his own way a little but the Steelers do not have that IT guy. I thought Smith-Shuster was that guy for a minute but Steelers fans ruined him and turned him into a bum when he isn't.

    When you look back at the 2000s run of 3 Super Bowls and 2 wins, you see why they were so good. The Steelers from 1998-2008, in the first round, picked 3 Hall of Famers.....Faneca, Polamalu and Big Ben. They drafted Plaxico Burress who was a star receiver, They drafted, in my opinion, the greatest Nose Tackle in NFL history in Casey Hampton. Heath Miller, the best Tight End in Steelers history. Santonio Holmes, the most clutch receiver I have seen in my eyes as an adult in Steelers history. And several really good players and there was leadership with it.

    I could write all day about this but the Steelers look to be in that dead zone they were in, in the mid 90s, where they drafted average to busts 5 years in a row. Deion Figures, Charles Johnson, Mark Bruener, Jermaine Stephens(OUCH) and Chad Scott.
     
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  9. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    And, you were right.
     
  10. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    Good LBs in HS already know and do this. If a DC is talking this way about an NFL player, not to mention an expensive 1st rounder, all I can say to that is, Damn. We be in deeper kimshu at this position than I thought. JMO>
     
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  11. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    :hmm:



    Strongly disagree on Minkah here. Minkah's responsibilities befall on both Keith Butler for putting him in unwinnable situations. More on this can be explained by Alex Kozora here.



    Again though, I should not be surprised regarding Keith's case. Placing his players in unwinnable situations seems to be an unfortunate hallmark of his. For that matter, remove Minkah from the equation and said situation gets a lot worse.... as seen on Sunday against the Chargers. Minkah has been a success as far as I am concerned as he is the youngest player in Steelers History to obtain back to back All Pro nods before the age of 25. Yep, you read that right. Not even the likes of Joe Greene, Jack Lambert or even Jack Ham were able to accomplish this. However, that is beside the point; Minkah is a star player.... he is just having a down season. It happens. Heck, even Chase Young, an early DPOY favorite prior to the season starting, regressed some before the injury.


    The rest of the list is just a classic example of why the NFL Draft is nothing more than an over glorified lottery. Sometimes a team hits.. sometimes they fail. Heck, even some of the most notable Jackpots in NFL History did not come from the First Round alone, the Steelers themselves knowing of this doubly so and no less. Even so, it is difficult to hit every single year.



    Heck, sans the 2021 NFL Draft, Bill Belichick has not had too many of those good drafts either. If anything, what you described can be counted against him as well. The difference of course is... well.... that guy in Tampa that he had for an entire generation. Take him away and.. is Bill Belichick the same? Same goes for the Steelers without Big Ben during his tenure here as well. Having the guy on one's team sometimes is a double edged sword; you will have tremendous success but also tremendous difficulty obtaining quality talent.



    In short?! Devin Bush Jr's time as a Steeler could be potentially coming to an end should he fail to impress. Other players have not before as you listed but some have. Again though, all apart of the NFL Draft process; the ultimate lottery.
     
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  12. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point. Also interesting that 8 of our last 10 1st rnders have been defensive players, not many of them have been great. Watt, DeCastro and Shazier were great picks. Bud and Edmunds were starters ...I'd put Minkah in this group right now. Harris looks like a nice starter if not a star. (granted I thought that about Bush his rookie year) So 6 of our last 9 1st round picks were not failures - 3 of them were great. Jones, Burns, and maybe Bush look like bad picks. I think first round success is around 60% but 1 bad injury to Shazier made things difficult. Hitting on 6 of 9 1st rounders isn't necessarily bad depending on how you judge them. Better than avg. You can't blame our issues on the scouting. We have the talent to be good.

    At some point people will accept that Mike Tomlin is the issue. Inconsistency and disorganization is always a "boss" problem. The other issues that points to a bad leadership... lack of leadership, no development of your coaches, (Tomlin has not produced any coaching talent) , and players and coaches wanting to leave. Ultimately a HC is graded on their post season success. Our post season record over the last 10 years is a joke...especially when you consider "expectations" and the fact that we have had an elite QB w/ surrounding talent most seasons.

    Everyone is always so quick to point the finger at the coordinator but at what point is the HC responsible? Butler has built some really good defenses running the style of defense he has always ran. When the defense falls apart it always seems to be injury related and no talent beyond the stars. We do not develop the base talent. We find stars and struggle to fill the rest of the roster.

    Offensively it's been feast or famine. No consistency anywhere. Special teams has consistently been bad, this year might be the best we have seen in a long time. We used to develop WR and O Lineman like it was easy. That has not happened over the past few years. 2 different O coordinators have produced garbage and 2 have produced elite offenses. The team as a whole has been inconsistent and never good at all phases of the game. NO one has ever said this team is a button up'ed well organized team. The game plans are random. We always struggle to find a personality because we refuse to be good at anything consistently . No one can say wow this team is consistently prepared. We usually look our best after we embarrass our selves the week before. The steelers used to always play their hearts out...now that's relegated to a few players doing so.. most of the roster acts if they could care less. The tackling efforts on defense are embarrassing. Bush plays like he's afraid of getting hurt. He avoids contact and plays hesitant to stick his head in there. How many times has MT said his focus is to produce a good running attack? When the team can't even fix the problem they are all aware of , it's a boss problem. Consistently the worst in the league... how can we not just be avg?

    Since Tomlin is unwilling or unable to shake things up and motivate I think it's time the owners shake things up. Now is the time to do it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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  13. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Kimshu or Kimchi?
     
  14. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    My problem with what Butler said minus the folksy talk that makes it seem less threatening is that simply running to the ball is a vastly simplistic training mentality. Bush, Spillaine, Edmunds and Schobert to a certain extent have ran to the ball or more correctly ran to where they thought the ball was and that's the problem. They are running to the ball but guessing where it is. Sunday for all his gaffes, mistakes, and poor play Bush did one thing that actually surprised me. He tracked the ball carrier and didn't jump the open gap. If he can continue that progression he will get better.
     
  15. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Do we think he might have read the writing on the wall and knew that if was going to be a rough 2-3 years and is trying to preserve his body to get out of town when his rookie deal is done?
     
  16. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    I think Ben has become a leader as he has gotten older.
     
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  17. The Sodfather

    The Sodfather Well-Known Member

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    Devin Bush's play requires Tomlin to have to either find a way to motivate him or sit him. I don't like Spillane playing most of the snaps but how much worse can he be than the present version of #55?
     
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  18. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I've been thinking that the last 2 games.
     
  19. Thor

    Thor

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    Not sure I understand entirely what you're saying here regarding the CBA, so just a few things I'll add for clarity. Regarding the 5th year option, the new CBA presented a re-work of the determining factors and amounts for the players eligible (i.e., first-round draftees). Previously, the option year was guaranteed for injury only. A team could still cut the player prior to the fifth day of the league year of the option and be rid of the salary. The option year salary was dependent upon draft position: for those in the top 10 it was equal to the transition tender for their position, past the 10th pick it was the average of the 3rd and 25th highest salaries there.

    The 2020 CBA made the option year fully guaranteed if exercised, as well as the existing 4th year (if it wasn't already - it Bush's case it is). The amount is performance dependent, with Pro Bowl selections and snap count as the drivers. Basically, there are four tiers, with the top tier requiring at least two Pro Bowls in the player's first three years (Minkah), and step down from there. The top tier makes the 5th year salary equal to the franchise tender at his position. The bottom tier makes it the average of the 3rd through 25th salaries at the position.

    As for how this impacts Bush's situation, right now Over The Cap has his estimated 5th year option at $10.3MM, which sounds about right. He's not made a Pro Bowl, and the ACL injury cut into his snap count, so he'll be on the lower end of the scale. The Steelers are currently swimming in cap space in 2023 (~$140MM under), but have only ~17 active players. This makes money not so much the issue as is value, and how it fits into their strategy in rebuilding the roster.

    Bush symbolizes what happens when you fail to get enough value from your draft and developmental signings, namely that more money must be spent on free agents to supplement the core of your team and remain competitive. IMO, the FO is going to have do more of that than they're used to over the next couple of years, so I don't see allocating over $10MM to an inside linebacker whose current performance is below replacement level as a wise maneuver.
     
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  20. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    I believe Devin needs to sit, maybe he will take his job seriously?
    If not he could be out of the NFL quickly.
     
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  21. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Very nice assessment.
     
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  22. JAD

    JAD Well-Known Member

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    If your star #1 pick MLB actually does that, which he did, He should of been sat down. Spillaine or Schobert would of attacked the open gap and that's the difference.
     
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  23. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    3 draft picks and no effort or instincts. that second and third round picks could have been O-Linemen. :cool:
     
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  24. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    Yes, one is pig Latin for the other.
     
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  25. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    This big time. However, the owners need to be shaken up too, I think, since I believe the team reflects their priorities. Since that won't happen, as well as the current regime changing, we're in for the same style of football until whatever does change. We can't keep doing the same things over and over expecting something different. Fans who are ok with how things are going are like people stuck in a burning building that the flames haven't reached them yet and telling each other, "see, it's not so bad and we're better off than most of the others". JMO>
     

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