Ben no longer an elite QB ?

Russell Wilson will be a FA at the end of the year as this is the final year of his 3 year rookie contract. If Seattle loses this weekend, he's still going to get a boatload of money from them having won a SB. If he gets that second, he'll probably get two boatloads of money from Seattle.

Your plan of a getting a cheap second tier QB won't work for long because once they do win a SB they're going to want to get paid like it. The best you can hope for is to sign a quality veteran second tier QB for four years (rookies are unknowns and take time to develop while only getting 3 year contracts) and hope that they win the SB right away, then you would have 3 more years to win more (assuming he doesn't become a malcontent and hold out before his contract is up). When his contract is up, he's surely going to want the big time money that you bemoan. And some team will almost certainly pay him. Kevin Kolb got $12M from the Eagles for 1 year, then $13M/yr from Arz, for simply having a few really good games.

I'd even argue that a decent QB on a consistent playoff contender but not Super Bowl winner will command a very high salary on his second contract. Andy Dalton, Matthew Stafford, Matt Ryan and Jay Cutler anyone? Your plan will only lead to a mediocre team with constant turnover at QB (every 3-4 years) creating turmoil and instability at the most important position.

 

...and even more turmoil and instability on this website. LOL!

 

Now we're talkin!
Like a soap opera.
I wonder, are ALL teams fans like this?

 

I think most fans generally ARE the same in most aspects. HOWEVER, it would be pretty interesting to know if there are Packers fans that try to convince other Packers fans that it would be in the best interest of the team to trade or release Rodgers? I wonder if Pats fans try and make the argument to release Brady and so on... It's funny to me that when Cowher was here people were like "if we only had a qb!" and now we have a qb and people are like "if only we didn't have a qb!" LOL!

 

Lol! Exactly! People have very short memories. I think what some people would say is that neither of those two QBs have gone 8-8 and missed the playoffs in the past two years. I think a more accurate comparison would be what Saints and Charger fans say about Brees and Rivers. I would be surprised if they acted the same way, but you never know.

 

I don't really expect to see great Defense from most of those Teams , I am not willing to sell our soul to join the New Fantasy League . A contract for Ben 5 years about 65 or 75 Million is fine , but just don't spend so much on the Kitchen that we can't finish the Bedrooms.

We need a place to lay our heads . The Defense is what we should hang our hats on .

 

By the way for those who want to hammer Ben for 3 post season losses in a row, should remember that Brady lost 3 games in a row once as well. Giants in SB, Ravens in wildcard round, and Jets in the division round when the Pats were the #1 seed.

 

Nobody said he wasn't good, and son I have seen way more Steeler QB's than you may ever see. I have seen the Steelers before they were great. All that was said is that he will be paid like an elite QB.

 

I can't speak for Saints fans but, the Charger fan(s) here LOVE Rivers, They don't get into the "what if" scenarios because they still claim ownership of all ex-Chargers who go on to bigger and MUCH better things with a different team. Brees, Sproles, Turner, etc, all the way back to the trades/ give aways that helped the 9ers OL/DL in the 80s.

 

I struggle with listing Eli Manning as "not a good qb"... why? 2 Superbowls and 2 Superbowl MVPs. I think he struggles with inconsistency like Ben does. One of my best friends is a Giants fan. They complain about the same stuff with Eli that some of us here heap on Ben. He has also won more Superbowls than he has lost just like Ben, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. His brother Peyton is .500 in the Superbowl. Eli is undefeated in the Superbowl IIRC.

 

He is undefeated but I honestly think his mvp's are more the result of his last name. In that Super Bowl where they upset the undefeated pats that giants d played lights out and I really think it should have been someone like Justin Tuck. They only managed 17pts in that game and he threw one td. However, that d held probably the greatest offense of all time to only 14. That's why I say that he got that mvp because of his name.

 

Even if you take those 2 Superbowl MVPs away (and that's only by speculation) his SB accomplishments stand nearly next to Ben and above Brees and Rodgers... even if his QB rating doesn't touch any of them... he's his own type of QB... and he has feats to prove it...

 

It took this team 25 years between winning SB 4 to winning SB 5 and 6, and almost winning number 7, I think fans are spoiled and need to appreciate what has been accomplished by this team since we drafted Ben in 04, does this team need to upgrade certain positions mainly on defense, yes it does, but every season is a new beginning and we should be thankful for what has been accomplished over the last 11 years, most fans would love to have the 11 year run we just completed....

 

Yeah he led a couple of good drives that overshadowed the rest of his season and career even. I have a buddy that hates the giants more than maybe I've ever seen anyone hate a football team and he can tell you every single negative Eli stat there is. There is quite a laundry list of them. I'm sure the giants fans appreciate the Super Bowl drives but I'm also sure he has caused some of them to wanna pull their hair out from time to time as well.

 

If you have a great defense and a balanced offense you can win a Super Bowl with average to above average QB play. If you have that and a really good QB it's that much easier. Ben has been a really good franchise QB and when he's had a great defense and a relatively balanced offense we've done well. He reminds me a lot of Brett Favre in that when watching him I go from "how'd he do that" to "why'd he do that" on a regular basis.

We don't have his replacement on the roster now. We won't be able draft a "sure thing" this year but we need to start trying to replace him. If we don't resign him we'll wander in the wilderness for a while. I think we have the basic building blocks to win it again so I say keep him and try to give him what he needs to do it again.

Fix the defense, shore up the offensive line, and he can win another one.

 

What you wrote above that is bolded is dead on - it takes being good in multiple areas to be a SB winner. Think about Brady earlier this year when they got drubbed by the Chiefs. There were numerous comments/articles that Brady doesn't have it anymore. Then Belichek makes a few changes on the line, Gronk gets healthy, LaFell becomes a decent deep field threat, the running game comes together, and the defense for a change doesn't just create turnovers but has the ability to at times physically dominate the line of scrimmage. And here we are again seeing all this discussion about Brady being the GOAT and there was even minor MVP talk thrown his way...but I don't understand 10 weeks ago they were saying he didn't have it anymore.

I just wish people would try to be fully objective when they look at the QB position...too much of it is. "Well he doesn't have SB wins" or "He can't win without a defense" or with Ben "He won with the lowest QB rating." You have to look at the whole picture which to me is a combination of regular season performance, playoff performance, and crunch time.

You know one of the greatest debates out there is Brady vs. Manning. And many people love to point to Brady being the best because of the SB wins and the stellar post season record and that Manning has a losing record in the playoffs, yet here's the strange thing - if you look at their post season performance Manning actually has a better QBR of about 90 vs. Brady's 87 - which begs the question is Brady better than Manning or is it that Brady has more often played on better teams?

 

The same can be said for Ben, though. People loved Favre... but he had plenty of mishaps... these guys understand something: you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Eli takes his chances... I think his career QB rating is below Carson Palmer (and Jay Cutler and Philip Rivers, etc. @ non-SB-winning QBs)... but are they really "better" QBs, in the terms you're creating?

Eli has had good games and bad... good seasons and bad... But, at the end of the day, he has won 2 Superbowls and was MVP of both of them. If it were only one Superbowl, then perhaps (and it's a stretch at "perhaps") we could question his effectiveness... but a repeat trip and another MVP, to boot... the man gets no props, whatsoever.

 

Which is why I have a problem with the QB position being considered so much more important than others. It does start at QB, but it doesn't end there...

 

I understand what you are saying and I do agree that the QB...coaches too often get too much credit and too much criticism for wins and losses. I do think the QB is the most important position and that with a good to great one in place you can hide some warts that exist with the rest of your team. But generally, you are not going to win it all unless multiple parts of your team are in place.

The thing about this thread is because the Steelers lost a playoff game and Ben didn't play well that he is now "not elite" and now we are getting articles about how special Joe Flacco is even though the guy has pretty much been a mediocre QB his entire career except for 5 playoff games (granted - I understand performance in the playoffs means a lot).

That is why I was trying to interject some sense of objectivity to the debate and why I am trying to stress that you need to try to take a holistic account of how the QB performs - not just cherry pick one thing like Super Bowl wins or regular season stats.

 

That reminds me of the stat I saw about Belichick's record after a loss. With Brady he's got a crazy good record and without him he's a .500 coach. Is he really that much smarter than he was in a train-wreck franchise like Cleveland?

 

Get rid of Brady.

 

As Don Shula said years ago, football is all about luck. Not having a good quarterback is bad luck.

 

Also Brady started out his playoff career at 10-0, since then he is 8-8...now I ask which "Brady" is a more accomplished all around QB - the one who started out 10-0 with 3 SB wins, but middle of the pack stats or the one who is 8-8 but has had 2 MVP seasons.

This is what I mean where concentration on one stat or criteria can blind us on the whole picture.