Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

We all know why Namath is in this list but I agree with you on that....But for Young,he was one of the best QB in the 1990s with Favre and Elway,he was great even if he was not Joe Montana

 

This.


Steve Young is a Two Time NFL MVP, 6 Time All Pro, a 4x Passing Touchdowns Leader, a 6x Passer Rating Leader and a 5x Passing Percentage Leader and an NFL OPOY Award winner. Steve Young oh most certainly belongs among the Top 15 All Time. If anything, Steve Young was Lamar Jackson before Lamar Jackson ever took the field minus the accuracy inconsistencies.

 

Not that I am going to argue with you, the voice of reason, but here are some other factors to consider if we are going this route.
1. Despite some of the teams you mention being good teams, the AFC was simply a more physical brand of football.
2. Carolina and Atlanta were both paper tigers. Cam Newton may have been the most over-rated QB ever. Atlanta simply wasn't the real deal and they showed it in the SB.
3. I have to vehemently disagree here. Daylight and darkness are conditions that no man can control but a man with sight has a definite advantage over a blind man. The fact that neither has control over the weather has absolutely nothing to do with who plays better in inclement weather. Since the beginning of time in the NFL there has been a premium placed on players who can excel in inclement weather, particularly QB.
4. Yes Brees was cerebral, and very good at it, but he wasn't physical and he would clearly be the latter choice to play in physical, increment conditions.

 

Have to disagree with that. IMO Steve Young is one of the most overrated Qbs ever.
Sucked before he came to 49ers, and then when he took over a team that just won 4 SBs he finally managed to win 1.

 

How many players who was with the 49ers in the 1980s was with them in the 1990s when Young become their starter?

 

When Montana won his last SB to when Young Won his only SB there were almost as many same players as when Tomlins team went to the SB from Cowhers. Hell Montana won his last SB in 1990, and Young took over in 1991.

 

Almost every QB in NFL history will look bad if you are compared with Montana

 

LoL. So a Qb that took over a year after the last Qb won a his 4th SB, and took 4 , or 5 years to finally win his only SB is great, and awesome , one of the top Qbs of all time, but a HC that took over a team that went 8-8 the year before he took over, and won a SB, and went to another with about the same amount of players isn't. Make that crap make sense .
Like I said what You say changes from team to team.

 

Wtf,this is not the same thing lol....Montana or Young had no say on draft day or thing like that and you know that!

 

OK. So now Montana, and Youngs HC sucked???
LoL.
Keep digging that hole, and don't stop.

 

I never said their head coach sucks,c'mon man...Don't said thing I have never been close to said

 

Why You do it to me constantly.
You never argue about what I say, you always argue about what You have wanted me to say like the McVay, and McCarthy stuff.
I've never once said McVay, and McCarthy didn't develop Qbs, I said neither has drafted, and developed good Qbs, but that's not what You keep arguing against. So why should it be different for me to you??

 

There's nothing subjective about weather. It's harder to play in cold weather, wet weather, snow, rain, wind, mud, etc... Your take on it is complete BS.

I played quarterback through college, and I can tell you that weather without a doubt matters a ton. Anyone that says something that wrong could never have played the position or understand the game like you claim to, or they would know better than to say something completely out of line like that.

Your attempt at trying to downplay certain parts of playing the position regarding weather puts your lack of understanding on display and discredits your argument. It doesn't strengthen it.

Here's an article from The Athletic from 2018 breaking down the stats in indoor vs outdoor games for Brees against the game's best contemporary quarterbacks.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/59...ints-drew-brees-outdoors-dome-outside-rating/

Everything you claim about Brees and Ben in their careers through 2017 show that over their entire careers to that point, Brees and Roethlisberger were mostly the same with Brees having a very slightly higher rating than Ben outside and a higher completion percentage. During that same timeframe, Big Ben had a higher rating than Brees when playing inside, a slightly better touchdown to interception ratio, and a much better winning percentage in outdoor games.

This whole apples and oranges thing you keep trying to make this discussion into doesn't exist.

If you took Brees' numbers playing outside and extrapolated those numbers over a greater number of games, this imaginary great divide between the players simply doesn't exist in any way because the numbers tell a different story. Plus he put up all his big numbers in a passing offense built around him. When Brees played in San Diego in an offense that was predicated on the run first and playing outside, Ben put up better numbers.

On top of that, Ben still played in far worse weather than Brees, as the vast majority of Brees' outdoor games were against warm-weather city teams.

They are both great players that operated differently but on the same level. You are the one here trying to make Big Ben less than that.

Sorry, you're wrong on this and the numbers back it up.

 

Your arguing from the standpoint that weather does affect play. I am arguing the basis that neither has control of it. That is a equivocation fallacy error on your part. Two different things.


As far as the outdoor vs indoor stats?! That is disproven here. Again, those records by Drew Brees had to be done in multiple conditions; not just the dome.


In short?! Brees was the more accomplished QB than Big Ben was. The stats 100% back that up; doubly so their achievements.

 

This 100%, and I agree with @AskQuestionsLater a hell of a lot, but hes wrong here, or let's say misguided.

 

Come on man. We are talking about how weather conditions affect quarterback play. You can ask every quarterback that ever played the game and they will tell you that the weather condition affect your ability to play. Period.

Saying that neither player has control over it is irrelevant to the argument because the ONLY thing that matters is that weather influences play, outdoor weather influences it negatively, and the worse the weather, the more the play is affected by it.

So I gave a link that breaks down all the best contemporary quarterbacks of Drew Brees. All the quarterbacks except one show a clear differences in their rating indoor(higher rating) vs outdoor(lower rating). There was only one exception and that is a rare exception with all quarterbacks. The bulk of Brees' stats were compiled in a dome. The link I posted breaks it all down. It accounts for all the stats when he played outside, so your point goes against the evidence backed by statistical proof and the opinions of every single quarterback that I've ever talked to or coach that I have ever played for and that I have ever talked to on the subject.

Even when Brees played outdoors, he played in San Diego and the other warm weather climates of that division with great weather. And he played in a division with warm weather climates. Playing in Carolina, Tampa Bay, and Atlanta every single year is a hell of a lot different from playing in Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati every single year. Anyone that thinks otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.

The stats show that Brees' performances, while still great, were much less playing away from domes. There is no doubt about it. The same can be said for every quarterback including Ben, who had a higher rating than Brees over his career playing indoors.

Brees had a slightly higher rating than Ben outdoors.

Ben had a better rating indoors.

You can try to make your definitive judgements as many times as you want. There are too many facts here that show how similar they were statistically based on the fields and the weather they played in.

They are in the same discussion when talking about great quarterbacks. It's fine if you think Brees is better. You are entitled to your opinion. My problem is how you try to say that Big Ben is a couple levels below him. You could not be more wrong.

Project Brees' numbers based on the numbers he put up outside over his entire career. Then project Big Ben's numbers as if he played his entire career inside with the stats he put up indoors in his career.

 

Refuting what I have said that is misguided would certainly aid your argument against me.

 

So you are not going to account for the article I presented to you?! Did you read it?! No seriously. Did you?!


If that article didn't assist, here is another one here. Ultimately though, my point still stands. Neither can control the weather (unless they possess some form of power that neither you nor I can comprehend). They can only control how well they play. Performance based on self is not the same as performance based on weather. That is, once again, an equivocation fallacy on your part.



Moreover to the overall claim that I have made, Brees was the more dominant QB. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. Brees was Top 3 for a very long portion of his career. Big Ben was once.


That claim, whether that is liked or not, is the answer to the OPs own question;


Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?



In order for Big Ben to be rated higher than Drew Brees, he needs to have both the achievements, accolades and legacy that supercede Brees. I never said that Brees was the more physically gifted or even the more exciting QB. That is Big Ben; no debate there. Those factors mean little if Big Ben doesnt have the individual achievements and/or accolades to further strengthen his case.


Unfortunately for Big Ben, Drew Brees owns those records for a reason. Playing in a Dome wasn't the sole reason either. Brees was simply more dominant due to the fact his dominance was more consistent than Big Ben's ever was. Big Ben only had one season of true dominance; 2014. Brees has way more seasons and way more hardware to his name in NFL History.



My claim isn't an irrefutable fact because I have an Ace to grind against Big Ben like so many believe. My claim answers the question because there is too much data and analysis to suggest otherwise.

 

Put it this way if you were the Steelers GM and Brees and Ben are in the same draft, who are you drafting to play in the AFC North?

 

That doesn't answer the question. This isn't a question about who I would draft. The question posed is who is ranked higher all time.


Again, I am not bashing Big Ben by stating Drew Brees is better. I am stating that, between the two, Brees had the more decorated career.


That answer correctly answers the question.