Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

I agree that you've been consistent with how you view it.

I understand better how you think about it. But I think you're too reliant on stats.

When you say dominant, I think you mean "has good stats". To me, I think that word means something like "consistently wins against even the best competition".

Drew Brees was never dominant. I don't think Ben was dominant either. But he was closer for that stretch from when he was drafted to around the GB SB loss.

Looking at just awards can get you some weird conclusions.

Let's continue to test your idea that more individual awards means better QBs. Ben has 6x PBs, and 0x 1st AP1s, 0x AP2s PFR doesn't eve have Ben placing in MVP voting or OMVP voting. Won ORoY. Finished 2nd and 3rd in CPoY (which doesn't really matter). Guys in italics are still playing

• Phillip Rivers (8 PB, 0 AP1)*
• McNabb (6 PBs, 0x Ap1, finished higher in MVP voting than Ben ever did 2nd, 2nd place MVP once)
• Palmer (only 3x PBs, but 2nd place in MVP, and 2x 4th in OPoY)
• Russell Wilson: 10x PBs 1x AP2 several years where he placed in OPoY voting.
• Jim Kelly: 5x PBs, but 1x AP1, placed in OPoY and MVP votes
• Lamar Jackson: 5x PBs, 3x AP1s, 2x MVPs, 2nd in MVP voting a 3rd time.
• Josh Allen: 4x probowls, MVP (also finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting)

How many of these guys do you take over Ben?

You know what's maybe as interesting a comparison as Brees vs Ben?

Ben vs. Aikman. Like Ben, Aikman has 6x PBs, 0x AP1s, 0x AP2s. But he placed in MVP and OPoY voting once.

 

Bold parts are great points IMO.

Also...your avatar made me laugh.

 

I 100% agree with this.

I think in a successful SB run, you normally need the "weaker" part of your team to win at least one playoff game for you.

I think this was true for Brees and for Ben.

So if we're discounting the accomplishments of one of them because their D played well, we should do that for both of them.

In this framing...I guess the argument against Ben is that most would probably call the offense the weaker part of the team in both successful SBs. But I think that goes to the cap allocation issue I raised earlier. I think many "smart" teams allocate cap space to the D when they have a very good QB. I think this was the model for the Pats, the Seahawks*, and the Steelers. Maybe KC* too? They would usually have Mahomes, Kelce, but not big investments in WR. Teams with "*" got the benefit of the rookie QB contract. The Pats kind of did too because Brady was drafted so low.

 

I think Brees is Rivers, but he played in the NFC. If the Chargers would have kept Brees and traded Rivers I think they would have each done about what the other did.

Both very good QBs and you'd love to have them on your team.

I don't think either of them were Ben at his best. I do think that both were "lower variance" than Ben.

Which I think if funny / ironic because Ben played for the Steelers. Who's entire business model is to be as consistent as possible. So it's kind of funny because I think both Brees and Rivers fit our business model better that way.

 

In what ways have I taken lumps?


Care to elaborate?

 

Stats, by themselves, are not be the sole factor as I stated. As I have stated more so regarding Brees, his tremendous level of consistency over the course of his career is a massive part of his success. Even that isn't entirely it for Drew Brees.


What separated him from Big Ben wasn't just his accuracy, touch and timing of his passes but the combination of all three being done at a far greater level for a far greater period of time. Big Ben, again, had games where he could have these traits as well but such games were few and far between. Brees was consistently consistent; leading me to the next rebuttal.


For true dominance to exist as an NFL Player, consistency and longevity matters. Brady, Manning and Brees were the standard for some time from 2006 to 2010. Once Rodgers entered the fray, it became Brady, Rodgers then Brees from 2011 all the way until 2018. Recall how I stated that stats by themselves are not end all be all?!


Once those statistics are repeated throughout both a consistent and long period of time?! That is when the stats do matter; absent external factors. As we have discussed at length, neither Brees nor Big Ben were major players in FO. Therefore, we cannot judge each based on factors that neither had input in. What can be judged for both is the products both put on the field. As such, Brees' overall superior achievements and accolades win him this debate here for these are aspects that Brees had 100% control over. Just like Big Ben was the Offensive Rookie of the Year, Drew Brees was in control of every NFL Record he broke.




Now, to answer your question upon the QBs you have listed vs Big Ben?! None of them. Russell Wilson would be the closest one though. Russell had higher peaks of performance (2015 to 2021) than Big Ben ever did at any point in time in his career along with being named a First Team All Pro and possessing greater Pro Bowls. That said, Big Ben's superior longevity and greater improvisational skills win him this bout. As for the others?!


Josh Allen has far superior accolades along with being the best player on the Bills but he is the massive reason as to why Buffalo cannot get to the big dance. If anything, Josh Allen's penchant for Hero Ball far exceeds Big Ben's.


Lamar Jackson is yet another case but much worse. He is one of two players in NFL History to win NFL MVP by unanimous decision; Tom Brady being the other. He also clears Big Ben in the All Pro department as well. That said, like Josh Allen but worse, Lamar's penchant for doing far too much, far too often gets him in far greater trouble. Big Ben never really had that issue.


Jim Kelly should be placed much higher on this list given how his K Gun Offense was simply something that the league couldn't stop. Problem for him is while his peaks were greater than Big Bens (4 straight Super Bowl Appearances), his valleys are greater.


Palmer, McNabb and Rivers are all being lumped together here for they all share the same issue as Jim Kelly but worse; better peaks but too short lived to matter.



For your final comparison between Troy Aikman vs Big Ben, Troy Aikman has the better playoff performances and a Super Bowl MVP. As you said, neither carried major accolades. As such, have to attack this question another way while maintaining objectivity.

 

9 pages of back and forth all from a clickbait article

 

I mean, it's still an interesting discussion... You're not forced to comment if you're not interested in this thread.

 

That’s nice

 

Cannot help it sometimes.


It is always good to debate though within the spirit of good will.

 

So Brees was 1-5 in below freezing weather and lost 4 out of his 5 career games against the Ravens. Again if he would have had to play in the AFC North he would have been out of the league in 5 years.

 

It's kind of the point of the site, right?

Looking forward for us to have current Steelers stuff to talk about.

 

Just this throws the whole Brees vs Ben out the window.

 

This , and his record against the Ravens is enough for me to say Ben is better than Brees.
What gets me is guys that think Tomlin sucks as a HC, and that Payton is a genius HC think that Brees is better than Ben. That doesn't make a bit of sense

 

You forgot that Harbaugh is considered a better coach than Tomlin even though Tomlin got the best of him .

 

The fact that Kenny Pickett never lost to Lamar Jackson puts and end to any discussion about Tomlin vs Harbaugh.

 

Dome or no dome, Ben had skills that breeze simply never could come close to. Not even in the same stratosphere