Hines snubbed again…

Agreed. All-Pro, All-Decade, 100 best players are IMO important considerations. They're an indication that you were considered the best at your position. If nothing else, many of the same people voting on those are on the HoF committee.

As for the argument that they're totally subjective, guilty as charged, but it is called the Hall of "fame", not the Hall of "Great Stats" or Hall of "Objectively Great Players". Every HoF, except for the LPGA, is totally subjective by it's very nature.

There's tons of arguments for lots of players, who's in and shouldn't be and who's out but should be in.

Heins(sic) is borderline. That's just being real. He's been a semi-finalist 6 times and has never advanced to the 15 finalists. In short, he's really not that close to being named one of the 5 annual inductees. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great player, because he was. It's tough, because he played a position with a lot of guys who put up big numbers and those numbers are getting bigger every year and because he was such a fan favorite. Part of the issue is everyone talks about someone being "deserving" of the Hall which personalizes it. As if there was something he did or didn't do. Maybe if we think about it more in terms of a player fitting a HoF profile, it would take that part of it out.

 

I'm gonna let you finish... but Gale Sayers was the best returner of all time.

 

His blocking prowess, was a huge plus, but in the context of the hall, may not help cause he's going to be directly compared to Steve Smith who was also known as a great blocker. if they hadn't played in the same era and weren't both before the committee at the same time, the blocking part of their games would benefit each. As it is, it probably neutralizes that ability wrt to getting Committee votes.

 

If we’re arguing about which of two guys is The Best Ever…they both deserve to be in.

 

Yeah I don't have a problem with Hester being in; just giving some credit to an NFL great who never gets mentioned a y more.

 

correct those eras were different. I’m just saying from a skill point I don’t see Hines as those guys. He wasn’t AB either. I don’t think If you put a prime Hines in AB’s spot he has the best 6 year stretch in nfl history. Not to mention Reggie had to share his targets with Marvin Harrison and he still put up the kind of numbers he did as the 2nd option. Same with holt though later on he became the number 1. And Ben in his prime never had anyone put up numbers like AB because no one else he played with was AB and he played with some very talented guys. Talent separates certain guys.

 

So is the hall of fame by that logic. That’s voted on too

 

Cannot argue with that.

 

While I wholeheartedly believe that Hines Ward is an all-time great Steeler, I don't know about a Hall of Famer. As for Hester, for me, returners, kickers, punters don't belong in the hall.

 

Hines Ward will get in the HOF but it will take a few years. I'm a little biased but I think he should have been a first ballot HOF inductee. The overall player that he was doesn't stick out on a stat sheet but he made the whole team better week in and week out.

Kick Returners, Kickers and Punters shouldn't be in the HOF? Are you kidding?
Deion Sanders, Justin Tucker and Ray Guy may disagree.

 

Well deion is in for far more than his return abilities.

 

I don't think he makes it through the Modern Player Committee. He's going to have to make it through the Senior Committee which you're only eligible 25 yrs after retirement.

this is the sixth year he's been a semi-finalist and he still hasn't made it to finalists list. I can't find a list of semi-finalists by year, but in the list of finalists John Lynch and Ray Guy are tied for most times as finalists before making the Hall, at eight. Let's throw out Guy as a comparable just because it was about his position more than anything else. I would assume Lynch was a semi-finalist his first year of eligibility, 2009, which means he failed to make finalist for 4 of the 12 years before induction. Hines has already surpassed that. It would seem that something dramatic would have to happen to change the perception of his career relative to others. I'm not at all sure what that would be.

edit: Correction. there were a couple of other players, including Andre Reed and Art Monk that took 8x finalists before getting inducted.

 

And with all these wrs coming up it will take him a while. He's going to be kinda like art monk who took forever to get in. Hell it took cris Carter like 6 times to get in and he's far better than Hines was.

 

Must be something about WR's and Hall voters. Monk was an 8 time finalist also and took 23 years after retirement to get in. Carter was 6 time finalist and 11 years after retirement. Andre Reed was also an 8 time finalist and 14 years after retirement. Tim Brown was a 6 time finalist and 11 years after retirement.

I guess you could interpret that two ways: a) Hines is 11 years out of retirement, so there's still a chance or b) he needs to get to finalist stage soon cause it's going to take awhile when he gets there.

 

You make good points. I guess agree to disagree.

Hines ward was always the 2nd option with Steelers run first mentality. Per year Hines' targets were mostly below 100, unlike Holt and Wayne. He was lucky to play a little longer than them so he could reach 1000 receptions. Wards final numbers aren't far off from them though, he's in their neighborhood and on their block. If those 2 get in, Ward deserves to be there too.

AB's targets averaged above 170 targets in those 6 years. If Hines had started his career along side Ben, when Steelers began airing it out, we don't know what his numbers could be. They CLEARLY would be better, and would put him a clear cut above Holt or Wayne who already were in pass happy systems with above average qb's.

I do feel Ward could have done well any team he would have went to. I don't recall Ward really ever being locked down by one DB for an entire game. Sherman took out AB when ever they played, which was pretty shocking IMHO.

Not saying AB isn't great, I'm just saying I don't know what flaws in Ward's game people see? His hands and route running was every bit as good as AB's. If it is stats, like I said ... the teams he was on held him back, but everyone can see his greatness.

To me, I think the press guys around the country really are just looking at the numbers, and just remembering how they hated Ward because he kicked their team's a$$es on Sundays.

If it is ALL about stats let's put Vinnie Testaverde in the HOF. I'm starting the campaign!

 

Exactly, Sanders was a football player. I don't care how well they do their jobs, anyone who is on the field for 10-20 seconds of game time, doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Also, I think there should only be one year of eligibility, they are either worthy of the Hall or not. Just one mans opinion.

 

I think eventually, the way offenses are obliterating records, they need to cap what is HOF worthy. You just can't compare what has come before. That is why there is this crazy WR log jam now. Cris Carter was one of the best WR's I have ever seen and it took him years to get in. Crazy!

Plus certain positions like Guards and Centers get no love. And, yes, Punters and Kickers (How does Justin Tucker or Adam Vinatieri not get in?).

Maybe an overhaul in the process is needed?

Maybe make it harder to get in like Baseball, but make sure all positions have equal share of consideration. Although, I hate the way Baseball Writers have power trips over their voting power.

 

I dont see Hines getting voted in. The old timers committee or whatever it is will be how Hines gets in.

His stats are not getting any better, but the guys coming all will have better stats which is what the voters seem to like. The game has changed from early Hines days and he never had the chance to play in a pass happy offense.

Hines is a HOF and deserves to be there, but it could be another 10+ years.

 

I f a player like Hines who changed the WR role played it his own way, forcing a rule change due to his physical play is having roadblocks getting into the HOF, just think how tough it is going to be from AB to get in.

 

Well, Ben has never been a first team All Pro. Still think he isn't first ballot?

 

All three phases? Complimentary football?

 

He should be in the hall imo. If Hester gets in before him I'm going to be very irritated.

 

One of my favorite Steelers of all time. He is special because of the following:

1. Did whatever it took to win
2. Most fierce WR blocker of ALL TIME
3. Made the tough catches look easy
4. Held every Steeler WR record (when he stopped playing)
5. But most important did everything with a smile - how could you not love him!