What is up with Tomlin?

The orange part in your post is incorrect. Both sides of the ball were horrible that day, so this is in no way a defense of the defense. But the D did not allow 48 points. Anyone who watched the back half of that season wasn't surprised that we lost. But I didn't think it would be nearly as ugly as it was. Just a total **** show. Turning it over 5 times (once for a DTD) tends to lead to high scores for the other team.

I understand trying to repress memories of that game though.

I think KC was mostly Ben trying to not go out having the worst game of his career (which I'd guess is the reason he didn't retire with Pouncey the year before). It's crazy to get blown out in a game where you defense scores. I don't think anyone reasonable expected that we'd beat KC.

 

Hmm. Maybe, but since they are my favorite muscle cars I thought everyone knew.

 

The Steelers’ offense scored enough points against the Browns. The defense, however, gave up 40+. We were supposed to beat Cleveland, but we didn’t. Then we went to Kansas City as underdogs and got blown out. That game wasn’t even close.Either way, the Steelers have consistently underperformed in the playoffs for years now. That’s my point — and it’s not incorrect.

 

You seem to be arguing that the offense played well against CLE.

I'd imagine that you've heard of the idea of "points off turnovers" and how the more of those the other team gets, the lower your chances of winning is? This is the reason that turnovers are bad (well, one of the main ones anyway).

And how many points off turnovers did the Browns score? How much responsibility should the offense take for those? Here's the play-by-play: https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401220394

Browns TDs

1st Quarter

• Fumble DTD [7 points off turnovers]
• TD after an INT (put them at the 46) [14 points off turnovers]
• TD (our first possession without a turnover...but we went 3 and out)
• TD after an INT (put them on the 15) [21 points off turnovers]

2nd Quarter

• TD (we had a TD on the play before! and between this Browns TD and the last one, we had a pick and the D held...shocking in this game!)

3rd Quarter

• 3 browns possessions, no Browns points

4th Quarter

• TD (after a 3 and out 4 yards)
• FG (after a good guy TD!)
• FG (off an INT that put them on our 25) [24 points off turnovers]

If I counted right, they had 24 points off of our 5 turnovers. The "drives" they had for their POTOs started at (0 DTD, 46 yard line, 15 yard line, 24 yard line). We did have another INT they got at their 47 (i.e., 53 yards away), but the D actually made a stop on one of these (small victories I guess).

The argument that the offense set us up to win this game is hard to make if you remember the game (I imagine many were drunk off their asses after what must be the worst 1st Q in playoff history) or look at the play-by-play.

In the 1st Q, the offense had 4 full possessions and 3 turnovers. They had 13 net yards, -7 points (directly), and had one first down.

What do you think the win% in the NFL is when your team turns it over 5 times? I'm guessing that's it's very close to 0%.

Again, not an excuse for the defense. Which was also terrible in that game. Maybe it would have been a different game if the D could have got a stop on the first INT or forced a FG on one of the first two. But arguing that the offense doesn't have any responsibility for those points against just on the D is wild. Especially the turnovers inside the 25. Which pretty much guarantees 3 points against.

How do you define under performance? They were certainly ****ty in this game. But again...anyone who watched the back half of that season knew that the team was **** and the early record was smoke and mirrors.

I would very obviously prefer that we won more playoff games with Tomlin. Especially when we still had Ben.

But I also don't think any team we took to the playoffs since Ben was injured was really a playoff worthy team.

I think the problem on this issue is that many people start from their conclusion and then work their way backward. I think that's how you get silly mistakes like saying that our defense gave up 28 points to the Browns (when I'm sure the horrible snap / DTD is the first play anyone thinks about when that game is mentioned).

And we didn't just go to KC as underdogs. We went as the biggest underdogs in the history of the NFL Wild Card round (-12, KC -800 Steelers +550).

Our QB even joked about how we had no chance to win so we should just play to have fun. Although no one told Harris it was a joke based on his public response. We'll never know, but I wonder if his response to Ben's comments here was part of the reason he wasn't a captain again after his rookie year.

I'm not sure that being blown out when you're the biggest underdog ever is really under performing. I think it's more of a sign that the odds makers think that you got a team to the playoffs that really shouldn't have been there.

 

I am hard on Tomlin but this is impossible to blame him for the loss vs chiefs in 2021.The chiefs were a powerhouse and the 2021 steelers are the worst steelers playoffs team of all-time,just look at their stats,it was ugly

-55 in points differencial,they had a Matt Canada offense with a limited QB and their defense,they had the worst rushing defense in the NFL.If Carson Wentz would not have his massive choke against the 2-14 jaguars in week 18,the steelers would not been in the playoffs.

Without Watt,they would also drafted in the top 5 that year but with no franchise QB in that draft

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2021.htm

 

Stop with the Mike Tomlin b@ll-washing. He hasn’t won a single playoff game in 8 years. Trying to deflect from that fact doesn’t change it — and pointing to Ben being old is a weak excuse. My point is we were a solid favorite in that game. Yes, the team came out flat and unmotivated against the Browns. The offense put up 40+ points but had far too many turnovers. The defense didn’t step up and help win it either. Bottom line: the results speak for themselves.

You could say when Dick LeBeau left and Ben got old Tomlin was exposed for what he is. I think he ran Bruce Arians out of town too -- the last OC we had that was a decent at his job.

 

I found it. Going to call on it Monday

 

Fantastic n’ at

 

Turnovers have hurt us in the past few playoff games. In Buffalo a few years back they cost us 14 points. I think Pickens and Warren each fumbled.

Just last year (late in the game) Rodger’s had a fumble for DTD and a pick 6 on his last pass. The scoreboard is not always indicative on how the points were scored.

 

Not just the last few years either.

With Tomlin we had a ton of DTDs for and against in playoff games.

I don't think there's any way to find out for real, but my guess is that Tomlin's rate of DTDs (for and against) in playoff games is the highest in history.

It was one of two plays that won us the SB against the Cards. And they probably cost us games in the SB against GB and the game against the Jags. There are lots of others (like the one against CLE, and the two against HOU), but I'm not sure those were as decisive as the GB and JAX games. Although the one in CLE was super deflating...and I think caused Ben to get into a tailspin in the 1st Q (which he pulled out of by the 2nd half). And if we could have scored on the drive where we had the 1st DTD against HOU maybe we could have even won that game...but their D just owned us and I don't think we score even if we didn't give up the DTD.

 

I do our annual summer family picnic. My barn has a back side.

 

And his point was Tomlin didnt commit 5 turnovers. I'm sorry but 5 turnovers from an offense lead by a franchise QB is not on the coaches, it's on the players. The idea that Tomlin could never have losing season at the highest level of coaching and get to the playoffs year in and year out regardless of his roster but somehow had some coaching flaw that caused him to lose in playoffs is just stupid. The playoffs are a single elimination tournament, coaches dont turn on a playoff coaching switch once the playoffs start. This whole "Tomlin hasnt won a playoff game in 8 years" is so tired. There is so much context in each and every one of those games, to blame one guy shows your bias or that you dont know what your talking about. Honestly given your track record its probably both.

 

I thought his point was the defense didn’t give up 40+ points. We handed them a TD on the first play when the D was on the sidelines. I also don’t fault the D as much since the offense gave the Browns 4 more chances to score points.

but I’m not going to defend Tomlin on these losses. The team came out looking totally unprepared for a lot of these playoff losses.

I don’t think our offense ever got past the 50 yard line until the 3rd or 4th quarter vs KC and the game was over by then.

 

Its not a matter of defending Tomlin, its just a reality that we didnt lose that game because of coaching, we lost it because the offense couldbt stop turning the ball over. I doubt Tomlin is doing less preparation for a playoff game than a regular season game. If you have had a winning season and you made the playoffs but then are unprepared for a playoff game, thats on you as a player.

 

I think my main point was that Joel's dislike of Tomlin is so strong that it has him making elementary mistakes like how many points the D gave up if it makes whatever bad thing he wanted to say about Tomlin seem worse. That game was bad enough that we don't have to stretch the truth to make anyone on the Steelers look bad.

We certainly should have weathered the storm better after the Pouncey snap.

And a big part of that is on Tomlin.

I tend to think an even bigger part is on Ben, who just went into a complete tailspin in the rest of that 1st Q. But that doesn't absolve Tomlin of being out coached on the day.

I think it also fed into what must have been pretty low confidence of that particular team after week 11. When the smoke and mirrors game we were playing got exposed. I think it's an interesting question re: coaching here. Was it good that Tomlin was able to hide the flaws of that team behind smoke and mirrors for 11 weeks? Or was it bad coaching that everything fell apart once teams realized that we couldn't throw accurate intermediate or deep passes? I think the answer is probably that both of those statements are true (because we couldn't find a solution that worked after teams figured us out).

I defend nothing that the team did in that game. It was terrible top to bottom. Coaching. Offense. Defense. Cam Heyward in particular. Who had what should have been the easiest matchup of his career against a guy with like 3 starts (IIRC) and he did nothing in that game. Probably special teams (although maybe by default they were the best thing about the team because everything else was God-awful).

 

To some people trying to point out reality is somehow defending Tomlin.
I got told I was Defending Tomlin because someone thought the Raiders D was better than the Steelers D. LoL. No I was defending the truth, and Yet some still think it. They haven't figured it out yet that whatever sight you look at it shows the rankings of what ever is shown 1st. LoL.
Example: If You go to ESPN they show yards 1st so some think that means what is the whole ranking, but if You go to Pro Football Reference they show points 1st. LoL
Yet some haven't either figured this out yet, or choose not to.

I like Tomlin, Cowher, and Noll, and I don't like one more than the others, and yet I'm a Tomlin lover, go figure.
Notice if its something good you can point to, they will say it was because of something else, but if its something bad, it was totally Tomlins fault. You see this with different political parties. No matter if it's a good thing, or a bad thing, if You are on that political party it's good, if not it's bad no matter what. I call it stupid, and a inability to actually think.

 

A serious flaw with Tomlin was the fact that we never looked better in the playoffs vs the regular season after 2011.

I guess 2015 when we reached an AFCCG but even then, we needed 6 FG’s to win vs KC even though we had like 5 trips inside the RZ.

Ae never over achieved in the playoffs after 2011 IMO. We did get hosed on home field in 2015 with the catch that wasn’t a catch vs NE but we rarely went n as the better team and played better football except for the Miami game.

 

I tend to think that most of the success / failure we saw with Tomlin / Ben was more because of Ben than Tomlin.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/playoffs.htm

I think a big part of why we looked bad in the playoffs post Ben's injury is because we were getting in with teams that weren't really good enough to be playoff teams. I think this was a direct result of (1) the system we had and (2) the incentives for the team / coaches because of the business model of the team.

I assume you mean the 2016 playoffs (where games happened in 2017). I think we both agree that Bell was the driving force for our success in the playoffs that year. When he got hurt (and we had no good backup), we just fell flat. I think not being able to manage the relationship with Blount and the refusal to run back by committee even though we had two good backs is Tomlin's biggest failing as the HC of the Steelers.

I think that's right around when the decline came for Ben. I think this is around the time where AB starting complaining about the "bad wifi". I think Ben was losing accuracy on the deep ball. And it all went to **** after he got hurt.

To Ben's credit, I think he did a good job completely changing his game from "extend the play and hit bombs" to " read the defense and make quick passes". But it was his ability to extend plays that was his superpower. And as he got older, he couldn't do it as often. And when he did, he was less accurate on the deep balls.

And I think good defenses (probably starting with that regular season Jags loss) noticed this and capitalized on it. And then after the injury, he was only really consistently accurate on short passes.

While I believe this to be the truth, I don't think that diminishes Ben's career and he's a 1st ballot HoF player in my book for what he did up to the GB SB.

Re: Tomlin. I think he was too slow to change. And amassed too much power, especially on defense. Both Tomlin and Cowher were at their best when they let LeBeau run the defense. And I think Tomlin took too much control after that. I didn't like moving from Butler to Austin. Because I think Butler challenged Tomlin to grow because he was a rush the QB guy. I think Austin thought too much like Tomlin, so there was no real creative growth. I think we got that when we had Flores.

I don't think we'll know if not hiring a strong competent DC (like Flores) after Butler was because Tomlin wanted the control or because Rooney figured Tomlin should be running the D since he was getting paid so much. Either way, I think having a better defensive mind at DC to challenge and push Tomlin would have been better for the team.

While I think Blount thing is Tomlin's biggest specific individual failure, I think not being able to find a good DC after LeBeau (or even after Butler if we prefer saying it that way) is high on the list too.