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Willie Colon

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Da Stellars, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Gilbert is playing pretty darn well.

    When Colon comes back is he the new RG? Earlier this season he was looking a little rounder than previous years, might be time to move him inside?
     
  2. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    Gilbert is not really getting the praise he deserves at the moment, IMO.

    Ok, he's no Pouncey, and the injury roundabout has also been in play, but we're talking about a rookie tackle holding off some very good, experienced pass rushers. It's going to be a fast learning curve playing on that line, and he's adapted excellently.

    As for where Colon plays when he returns... my guess is that injuries will be the main deciding factor on that one.
     
  3. Sixpack

    Sixpack Well-Known Member

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    We drafted Gilbert to be our future left tackle.
     
  4. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    as long as max keeps playing well, gilbert will be the RT. he is far better on that side as he was in college. same as scott. he's far better on the right side. i think colon has a tough time hanging around as a RT only guy next year. he better become flexable. :cool:
     
  5. RobVos

    RobVos Well-Known Member

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    I sure would like to see Colon at G. I think the interior would be much stronger and with Max and Gilbert at the T, the line would be better. Colon could really maul in the run game as a G.
     
  6. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    i'd like to see kemo gone and a good vet guard and a good draft pick guard brought in to make for some competition at the spot. maybe one of those guard/ center guys kuglar likes so well. :cool:
     
  7. BLACKnGOLDsince72

    BLACKnGOLDsince72 Well-Known Member

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    :this!:
     
  8. TarheelFlyer

    TarheelFlyer Well-Known Member

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    I've wanted to see Colon at guard for quite some time. For me, he is a LG, but I would be content with him at RG. In order to couch this conversation for me, it must be in context of need.

    Needs on Defense:
    Well, injuries are clouding the picture here...a little.

    On the Dline, I was hoping that A. Smith could be a backup next year, but I think he is going to be released. Hampton I would like to resign, him or Hoke, but McLendon is doing fine. So for me, we need another DE, but he doesn't need to be a top pick. Keisel wasn't and look what he is doing. So next year: Heyward, Hood, Keisel, McClendon, one of Hoke/Hampton, and a draft pick (maybe a 4th).

    At Linebacker, the injuries really have things blurred. Sylvester we will know more about after the next few weeks, but I have no problem with him being on the roster. Worilds and Carter are in a situation where I would love to see what they have over the next couple of weeks as well. Foote has been a solid vet. Timmons and Woodley, yeah they stay...duh. Farrior, yep he is no longer the strongest link on the defense. We need a ILB badly. A smart, speedy guy who can pick up this defense quickly. Foote can fill the role next year if needed, but this draft pick MUST push to start and at a minimum split time at ILB next year. That gives us: Woodley, Harrison, Timmons, Foote, Carter, Worilds, Sylvester, and what is IMO the #1 pick next year.

    In the secondary, we need to get more depth at safety. Mundy has earned some minutes this year, but Will Allen is the guy who needs an upgrade so we can have some depth behind Troy. At CB, the only guy I see going is McFadden, that would mean we need a CB in the draft as well. So we need a S and CB. Where you pick them is up to you, but IMO they are NEEDS.

    So on the offensive side of the ball, what do we need. WR? No, I don't think we have a need here. We cut guys this year who could have made the team. Even if Ward retires, which could happen, the 5 guys we have I would be okay with. I think a UDFA or 2 would be okay here. TE is sort of in the same boat to me. You MIGHT use a late rounder...might, on a TE, but I am okay with the 3 we have. QB? Well, unless we are bringing Dixon back, which I wouldn't we will need a #3 guy to learn the offense, etc. Emergency only, but we either need a late pick or a UDFA. RB? With what Dwyer showed, with Mendy, Redman and Moore, and the return of Branch next year, this would be a luxury pick IMO. That is unless you think that Mendy isn't going to get resigned after this contract. Then it becomes larger.

    So the offensive line is really the issue on offense. Too many questions here. Does Stark come back? Do they want to upgrade Kemo? Does Gilbert stay at RT or move to the LT spot? Does Colon make a position change? What I would do is this: Starks/Kemo/Pouncey/Colon/Gilbert. Then go this for depth: Scott/Legursky/Foster/New Draft pick. Take a guy maybe in the 2nd or 3rd round again to be on the same path as Gilbert...an eventual starter. I probably draft a Tackle.


    So I wrote on and on, can you tell I am bored at work today, to say this, yes I want Colon back. Yes I want Starks back. If you assume those 2 and that Gilbert has earned a starting spot, I think Colon must make a switch to guard.
     
  9. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    You have to bring Starks back... this team and offensive line was in complete disarray, and Starks comes back and suddenlty the lines looks pretty good.

    No way it's a coincidence.
     
  10. defva

    defva Well-Known Member

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    We need for these three florida guys to play together and gel. :thumbs_up:
     
  11. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    In the NFL, Gilbert looked fine at LT when he played there. That's where he was drafted to play, so I doubt they'll pull a 180 and remove him from all consideration forever just because our RT got injured. Not to mention the fact that the team just made a huge investment in Willie Colon at RT, after Gilbert was drafted.

    The fans have wanted to put Colon at guard forever. At first, the reason was that he stunk in open space and was better suited to play guard, and after that it was because we had no RG but did have capable RTs (Adams, now Gilbert). I'll say this: if he was healthy today, the best way to get the best talent on the field would be to put him at guard -- Starks / Kemo / Pouncey / Colon / Gilbert. But the team has been more than a little resistant about putting him at guard. No matter what the situation, he was never even considered for that spot. Never even practiced there, I believe. We all want it based on speculation from his body type and playing style. I still think he'd be great there, but the team likes him at RT. And he is great there, and proven there too, so you can't argue it.

    This question isn't about Gilbert, it's about Starks. I fully believe Gilbert can be a legitimate starting LT in this league by as early as next year. I also don't want anyone to forget that Starks is not that great himself. He was never in the top half of the league as a LT. He ranged from "not good" to "satisfactory." Gilbert can be better than that. We're only so ga-ga over Starks right now because he came in on a white horse and rescued us from Jonathan Scott. :swordsman: As I see it, the team has five options:

    1. Make another commitment to Starks next year to play LT and drop Willie Colon (Gilbert at RT)
    2. Make another commitment to Starks next year to play RT and drop Willie Colon (put the superior Gilbert on the left side)
    3. Make another commitment to Starks next year to play OT, move Willie Colon to OG and put Gilbert and Starks on whatever side they like
    4. Make another commitment to Starks next year to play LT, keep Willie Colon at RT and play Gilbert at OG
    5. Drop Starks or keep him as the swing OT, start Gilbert at LT and Colon at RT

    The ones in red are the ones that I can't see happening. They won't do the first two because they won't drop Colon (assuming he comes back from his tricep injury, which he will). They won't do the third one because they won't move Colon to guard. They won't do the fourth one because they won't play Gilbert at guard. That one's more based on a hunch. When he was drafted we thought there was a good chance he would play guard, but there are two reasons I don't believe that anymore -- he hasn't seen a down of OG action in practice, preseason or regular season, and now that I've gotten to see him in games, I don't think he looks like a guard at all. He is built like a tackle, and he's excelling at tackle. I wouldn't move him, I'd let him grow there, and I think the Steelers will do that.

    That leaves option 5, wherein Starks is no longer a starter for us. Even if his injury worries are over, I was never fully satisfied with him as a starter. He was kind of an "adequate placeholder" for me. I'd be happy to keep him as the swing backup, but only if he does it for swing backup money. No more of this $1 million per game stuff. If he won't, they'll drop him like they did this year. The difference is, now they're prepared for it.

    For the record, I'd also be okay with option 3. I would try Colon at guard and Starks at RT. If it works, you've killed two birds with one stone. If not, oh well, we tried. But I've been saying that for years.
     
  12. DDinAZsteel1

    DDinAZsteel1 Well-Known Member

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    We will see how both Starks and Gilbert really are come Sunday. They even partially contain Suggs and Ngata and I say new contract for each!!
     
  13. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Huge Snack I have I disagree with you.

    The team never stated Gilbert was the future left tackle. One can assume that he was, but the only statement ever made was that they feel he could play ALL positions on the line.

    I never wanted to move Colon to guard, but the fact is that is the position he played in college, and his time away due to injury and the emergence of Gilbert is going to force the coaches hand.

    Starks is right in the middle of the pack when you rank him in pass protection, and slightly above average in the run game...and so far he is playing exceptional. He is solid, and a leader on the line.

    The line would be at its best with option 3 or 4.
     
  14. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    You're right, I'm assuming he was drafted to be left tackle. That's the position we cut, and that's the position he's been learning. He might well be able to play guard, but I'm convinced that as he matures he will turn out to be a much better LT than Starks. Starks is playing well right now, but he's been up and down throughout his career in my book. At times he's middle of the pack, at other times he's toward the bottom.

    I'd be all about playing Colon at guard, I just don't see it happening. There were so many times when it should have happened. Times when we needed it more than we need it now, and they didn't even flinch. Remember '08? Marvel Smith was LT, Willie Colon was struggling something awful at RT, and Max Starks -- who had played RT better than Colon in the past -- was making $7 million for the year to sit on the bench and pick his nose. Meanwhile we had Darnell Stapleton at RG, who was worse than any of the chumps we've had filling that slot since. That guy was bad. I said it every day: squeeze Colon to RG and start Starks. Then you're at least getting something for your money, Colon's pass protection woes will be minimized, and the entire right side of the line would triple in production. But they just wouldn't do it, because they wouldn't put Colon at guard. Even in the most dire of circumstances.

    It is possible that they've learned a lesson or two since then. In week 2 of 2011, Tomlin started the rookie Gilbert at RT over Scott. No way Tomlin of 2008 does that. Not a chance. 2008 Tomlin starts the veteran no matter how terrible he is, and no matter how good the rookie looks. So maybe they will think about sticking Willie someplace new. People change.

    I believe Gilbert could indeed play guard. Coming out of the draft, that was the talk. That he was too slow to play tackle and would have to kick in to guard. But I don't see that. I see the only young guy on our roster capable of protecting Ben's blind side. I wanna roll with that.
     
  15. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    they took a long time to sign colon. they were not sure about him either as they were not sure about max anymore. colon has not played meaningful football now in 2 years. i don't think there is that big commitment to him as you think. starks has shown capabilities when the weight is down. max is very intelligent. i've never been big on max, but i do think alot of woe's come from the guy next to him. that's the one that has to go if it were up to me. gilbert was young and missing time in a short camp this year. tomlin doesn't like to use young inexpierienced guys and the lockout didn't help his chances. i do think now however, he has shown the capabilities to tomlin and thus actually does make colon expendable. he is a one trick pony. the only other guy on the line that is a one trick pony besides colon is kemoeatu. i think both will be gone next year freeing up much needed money for the offensive side of the ball. gilbert gives them negotiating power over starks with his ability to play either side. jon scott has RT ability also and the swing backup ability to also use as leverage against colon and starks. they need to cut money somewhere. colon and kemoeatu are two good places to start, for what they have brought to the table the last couple of years. they have people in place they can use for they're spots now and can bargain with them alot easier. before they didn't have any cheaper sure things. that's my take on the situation. :cool:
     
  16. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    they took a long time to sign colon. they were not sure about him either as they were not sure about max anymore. colon has not played meaningful football now in 2 years. i don't think there is that big commitment to him as you think. starks has shown capabilities when the weight is down. max is very intelligent. i've never been big on max, but i do think alot of woe's come from the guy next to him. that's the one that has to go if it were up to me. gilbert was young and missing time in a short camp this year. tomlin doesn't like to use young inexpierienced guys and the lockout didn't help his chances. i do think now however, he has shown the capabilities to tomlin and thus actually does make colon expendable. he is a one trick pony. the only other guy on the line that is a one trick pony besides colon is kemoeatu. i think both will be gone next year freeing up much needed money for the offensive side of the ball. gilbert gives them negotiating power over starks with his ability to play either side. jon scott has RT ability also and the swing backup ability to also use as leverage against colon and starks. they need to cut money somewhere. colon and kemoeatu are two good places to start, for what they have brought to the table the last couple of years. they have people in place they can use for they're spots now and can bargain with them alot easier. before they didn't have any cheaper sure things. that's my take on the situation. :cool:[/quote:1bfvq2gm]
    Colon's our second best lineman, after Pouncey. I don't get why you're calling him a one trick pony. Is it because he only plays one position? Big deaI! I know you value flexibility, but you have to go with talent! Especially when our line's most critical problem is... it has no talent! Three positions are in need of upgrade. Pouncey at C and Colon at RT are the only ones that don't need to change. As a RT, he's a mauler of a run blocker and a steady pass protector. I don't think he's a one trick pony at all. To me that means someone who can only do one specific thing at their position (a goal line RB). Plus, there's nothing wrong with one trick ponies, if that trick is awesome. Wallace in his rookie year, Bettis in his last year.

    I hate to do this to you, but I remember you calling for Jonathan Scott to replace Max Starks at LT. You cited his flexibility as one of the reasons. You know who is the most flexible guy on the team? Trai Essex. Heath Miller is a one trick pony, too. He only plays tight end! You have to go with your best players, and position flexibility is just one of many tiny, tie-breaking factors that can work into the decision. Less than money and less than age. And when it comes to talent, it's not close to a tie. Colon blows Scott out of the water. He's far above Starks, too. The team agrees with me, having signed Colon to a $29 million contract and cutting Starks. The only bad thing you can say about Colon is his injuries, but they are separate from each other, and he recovered 100% from the first. There's no reason to think he won't do the same with his tricep. And he'll be able to work out, too, so we don't have to worry about him ballooning up to 500 pounds.

    I don't have anything against Starks. He's our best option right now, no question. He's 10 steps ahead of Jon Scott, and maybe about even with Gilbert, but of course Gilbert has miles of room to grow and Starks does not. So by next year, I expect Gilbert to be a better player than Maxie. Also next year, Colon will be back to take over the right side. Gilbert and Colon will be our second and third best lineman. They have to start. You can put one of them at guard and keep Starks, but you have to keep them both starting. Dropping talent like Colon is taking a step backwards we can't afford to take. We are desperate for more talent, so even if we draft someone, we'll just be breaking even if we drop a great player we just signed to a long contract. We need to get better, not break even.

    It sounds to me like you'd rather start Starks and Gilbert, cut Colon, look for OG solutions elsewhere, and leave Scott as our swing man. Forget about those last two for a minute, because those might happen anyway depending on next offseason. But Starks over Colon? Max is older, has a more serious injury history as far as I'm concerned, and not as good! Sure he's smart, but he's not a quarterback. WC is plenty smart to play RT, where we need him. If he'll take a backup role, keep him as a swing guy and a cheerleader, Larry Foote style.

    As for J. Scott providing the team with leverage, I think the cat's out of the bag on that one... Not too many agents will be falling for that.
     
  17. freakfontana

    freakfontana

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    for me colon is not good pass protector ,is good as a run blocker , since we are a passing team first and we need to protect ben he should play at guard and leave gilbert at rt
     
  18. oldschool

    oldschool Well-Known Member

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    I like - Starks/someone new/Pouncy/Colon/Gilbert
    -----------Scott/Legursky/Foster/somone new (or Kemo)
     
  19. jeh1856

    jeh1856 Beer is good

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    Colon will not be playing guard. The coaches don't think he can pull. We can talk about it all we want, but it isn't going to happen. Two years of injury doesn't help either.
     
  20. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Colon still hasn't overcome those false start penalties...
     
  21. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    So what do you think the answer is?
     
  22. spleeny09

    spleeny09 Well-Known Member

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    Colon can't seem to stay healthy. If he could get there and stay there, I would love to see him at Guard. I would love to see us draft O-line in round 1 next year and at least 2 more throughout the rest of the draft. I think we can afford to do so....especially since some of our CB's seem to be starting to step up. Re-sign Starks if the deal seems fair. Starks/Colon/Pouncey/?/Gilbert...if we could get 2 more young dudes equal to Gilbert and Pouncey's talent would be a dream come true. Whatever it takes to keep Kemo inactive will suit me just fine.
     
  23. oldschool

    oldschool Well-Known Member

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    Hahahahahaha... He used to drive me crazy with that. Probably why I never really was big on him. I think it was Colts game in 2005 he had like three on one drive if I'm correct. 2 then a play then another. Yeesh... :frustrated:
     
  24. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    we will have to agree to disagree about colon. 2nd best lineman? you have to actually play to be 2nd best. there is a way big jump from one to two if he is. and yes he can play one spot RT. that already gives max and scott an advantage over him. scott played very well last year , how easily we forget. gilbert was able to start as a rookie on both sides. colon didn't. we also went to the SB without colon last year. i just don't see the talent in colon you are seeing huge snack. sorry bro. :towel: :cool:
     
  25. Myronwemissyinz

    Myronwemissyinz

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    Agreed
     

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