Why the D will be improved

we all know KC has the final say. we all know MT is next in line for that say. we also know the dc or oc has some say and that's why MT hired them. if not they are just a MT flunkie and we really don't need them. MT would run the defense himself. semantics.

 

agreed. my apology for my wording.

I still cannot see any scenario where butler, DL, MT and the scouts don't agree on a position as critical as LB to this defense and Colbert just goes rouge. butler is involved in the process and I also believe with them knowing he's going to be our new DC even a year or two ago that his say is meaningless to the process. I believe they value it quite a bit or at least should. especially knowing they count on him and the scouting department to come up with the best players possible for the team at that position. once they do I think KC and MT and to an extent rooney place a value on what position at what point we draft them.

 

If we get better DB'S then the D will be better if we don't then it won't. LOL.

 

I think you are making this overly complex on purpose, just for fun. Lots of straw man arguments going on. So now you are comparing Troy's lack of stats to the all time greats in pass coverage? THAT's why his stats have plummeted? Because QBs are afraid to throw Troy's way? Not since 2008. You say his pass coverage stats are down because he lined up as LB much more. But his tackle #s suck too. So which is it? Your trying to defend the undefendable. Are you the boards Troy worshiper or something? Most anyone who applies mere common sense knows Troy's skills have eroded to the point of him being a liability. If you are in denial of this, then follow him to TN with Dick and take it from there. How many coverages did he blow last year? How many times did we see in open space, not covering anyone as targets were running wild and free down field? How many times did he guess wrong and miss ball carriers allowing the D to get gouged? He and Dick L were a major reason why the D was weak sauce. Will Butler make it better? Time will tell. We don't know. But what we DO know is what they were doing last year mostly was unacceptable. If you don't realize this, then let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

He was third on the team in tackles if you look at just lb play so if he lined up at lb more than in coverage his numbers are on par with Worilds better than the rest of the LB Corp and lower than Timmons how is that low numbers. He was in the top five for defensive stats again how is that low or proof of being ineffective. I'm not the boards resident Troy lover but you premise is so full of holes that it sinks. Just to sum up your position Lebeau allowed Troy to freelance and defend his player in the press. Troy was ineffective on the field given his numbers and his roaming. This hindered the other players on the field and their development. You are offering no solid proof for your opinion other than common sense and the eyeball test. I am happy to concede the point if you point to anything that shows Troys freelancing affected the development of others, proof that the defense was indeed better with Troy on the bench and not a lot of other factors making it so. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that there were multiple problems with the defense which you continue to ignore because you are sure that it was TP and DL as the main problem.

 

Stats

40 tackles
1 pass defended (down from his high of 17)
zero interceptions (down from his high of 7)
zero sacks

But you say he was our best LB and on par with Worilds?

I didn't realize zero sacks stacked well vs. 7.5 sacks.

I maintain my original assertion: Troy didn't aid the performance of the D, he hurt it. Dick's insistence on Troy worship and allowing Troy to freelance didn't assist the D's play, it hampered it. If you want to be in denial over these obvious trends, be my guest, but I am not going to argue the same points over and over and over. I have a working brain and working eyes and I can see the obvious. I am grateful I no longer have to hear the announcers say how Dick feels Troy is the most instinctive player he has ever seen, every single week. We aren't in 2008 anymore. That's the last year that assertion was worth saying. You need to realize these two concepts are not mutually exclusive, both things are true: Dick and Troy were incredible assets for this team for many years AND the two actually hurt our team last year. You see, both concepts can exist and be true. You should be able to understand this. And, just in case you didn't notice: The front office agrees with me. Their actions say all we need to know. Dick and Troy will be gone from this team moving forward. What does that tell you? Are you still in denial about this?

 

My take is that Troy has all but hit the wall . His style of play can be negated by sets and schemes . Hitting Safeties are like the FB soon to be a thing of the past .

DB'S must be able to turn the ball over in today's NFL. Troy has lost his knack to do that . So hitting the wall is a bit unfair as he is still a force as a force SS , but as stated that style is almost ancient .

 

Glad you brought that up. Many seem to not consider Rooney is not a complete silent observer, especially in the 1st round. In the later rounds, he may not have much input, but if I am not mistaken, I have seen vids of the war room and Art 2 is right there. He is there for a reason.

 

I have never been one to feel was a hard hitter. He used to make some circus tackles, in terms of getting there in a flash, but he has never been one to bring the lumber. That was Ryan Clark's role. And, with only 40 tackles (127th in the NFL) I don't think he is even a very good ball carrier tackler at this point. He misses tackles all over the field these days. Sure, sometimes he misses in dramatic fashion, with hair flying about, but he still was missing, regardless if dramatic or not. 40 tackles for a safety - especially one playing up like a LB - is not overly impressive. As a matter of fact, 48 safeties had more tackles than Troy last year, and combine that with 1 pass defended, zero picks or sacks, and, he's just not producing on even an average level.

 

Worilds is sent to blitz the QB he is suppose to get sacks. They walked Troy up to the line to help in run support ie tackle the runner. If you want to compare apples to apples then look at the number of times Worilds blitzed vs number of times Troy blitzed. I'm stuffing the run where they were using Troy their numbers are about even considering Troy played four fewer games. Now look at where he lined up and times he was targeted. How do those compare with last season's stats. If you aren't in overage how do you defend the pass, if they don't throw your way how do you defend the pass? Tomlin started Troy because he is the starter a hurt Shark and old dependable Will Allen weren't going to displace him. You need to get over DL saying Troy was the most instinctive player or defending him it's what coaches do and even if you don't agree with it the coaching staff felt having Troy out there put them in the best position to win. Now for the fourth time I AM NOT DISPUTING THAT TROY'S SKILLS HAVE DECLINED. I am saying that it is not as simple as you are making it. Yes the final four games the secondary appeared to play better and yes Troy was on the sideline but I'm realistic enough to realize that the two don't necessarily mean that Troy's absence made them better but rather a combination of factors did. Since you maintain they did because there wasn't any freelancing going on how many times was Will Allen targeted in coverage?how many passes did he defend? There were lots of issues and ignoring the big ones to focus on Troy and DL seeming senile for praising him seems to be looking at the small picture. My prediction is that you will continue to see growing pains from this group. I hope I'm wrong but saying things improve with Troy and DL gone simplifies it too much.

 

Your numbers are off he had 40 solo tackles he had 61 total in 12 games.

 

When comparing him to the other safeties, I used apples to apples (combined tackles) stats. What I didn't include were how many CBs had more tackles than Troy, and there were a boatload. For an all world, super star safety, there should not be many CBs with more tackles or something is wrong, especially considering that Troy was right up there, like he was a LB for so many plays.
Stats

40 tackles
1 pass defended (down from his high of 17)
zero interceptions (down from his high of 7)
zero sacks

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...xperience=&tabSeq=0&qualified=false&Submit=Go

And I never said minus DL, - TP would automatically make this D be an instant top D. I just said it would be the beginning to a path of improvement. It's really hard to improve with a former star SS being played like he still has star skills when he clearly doesn't.

 

I would like to pause here and say how much I'm enjoying the discussion.

 

I think you missed one step and that's Rooney has final say.

 

Timing was a _part_ of it, yes. But so was a D that was ineffective, showing no signs of being acceptable. And Dick's disdain for young players, and overly complex system, was part of it as well.

 

Obviously, I don't know you very well, at least on a message board basis. If you are sincere with the above, thank you, me too. If you are being sarcastic, forgive my naivety.

 

Thorn is all about the X's and O's. He's being serious. Also, since you're new around here, there is an actual system that is used for sarcasm. If you see something typed in green letters that means it is a sarcastic response. Not that all sarcasm will be in green but since you're new if you want to utilize it will help people know you're just messing around. As for me, just assume I'm pretty much always being sarcastic if something sounds outlandish. LOL.

 

Yes 100% sincere I love a great discussion and if we all agreed it would be very boring. In this case you had an intriguing POV and while I don't share it the discussion had been great.

 

I've honestly wondered in the past few years about the "complexity" of his system. The reason for that is because we've been abused by some really sub-par qb's who apparently didn't seem to find it complex at all. I know a qb could be exploiting a guy trying to adjust but I just really think it boils down to the fact that we've not had the true talent it takes for the system to prosper like it once did.

 

I was just about to post how this was a good argument to read. Can you make it last the entire off-season, though?

 

he does ultimately but has made KC the GM and doesn't micro manage as say jerry jones does.