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Why does Edmunds seem like an afterthought?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Jball, May 30, 2019.

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  1. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    All hindsight. Tell us where you posted that Leonard was going to be an allpro for the Colts. That's what I thought, you didn't.
     
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  2. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I never made that claim. My claim was that Edmunds was a mistake and Leonard was one of the players I said they should have taken instead. That Leonard earned All-Pro honors is evidence that my claim was correct.

    If you are going to keep trying, please at least do better. It's bad enough that you are still either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my point, but that's nothing. Earlier in the discussion, you based an entire sarcastic post on the notion that it could be argued that the Steelers made a mistake waiting until the second round to take Jack Lambert in 1974 even though they actually still got him and waiting allowed them to get Lynn Swann as well. I suggest you let that sink in and reconsider your approach.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  3. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    That big board said Leonard was the prototypical 4/3 Will LB, which the Colts run and the Steelers don't :shrug:.
     
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  4. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    My opinion isn't swayed by what he did on another team and it doesn't hold it to be a fact based on the play of someone who isn't on the Steelers. It doesn't take the play and end of the season honors of a player not on the team and twist it fit the narrative that because he was honored for his play for the Colts that means it could be reasoned that the same would take place if he was drafted by the Steelers.

    My opinion takes into account the evidence and facts of the Tomlin/Butler regime and holds that it's difficult for young players to over take veteran players and get playing time. Even someone like Devin Bush who comes from a system that is familiar with the 3-4 playing inside linebacker as his natural position and was fully scouted is not being given anything. Tomlin and Colbert have said he will have to earn his spot and he hasn't done that yet. More than likely will rotate early with Barron.
     
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  5. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    Sometimes, this is the best response.
     
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  6. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    One things been proven, the Steelers missed out on an All-Pro in a pivotal season when their defense needed all the help they could get. Leonard might have been the difference between a SB run and sitting home for the playoffs (that part will never be proven).
     
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  7. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    Why does anyone's foresight/hindsight have anything to due with the fact the Steelers missed an All Pro draft pick? It has to be based on hindsight at this point, unless someone predicted Leonard was going to be an All Pro.
     
  8. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Or he might have been Kijana Carter. These things aren't really known, they are leaps of faith based on how things played out in a different situation. Look at Suh, a dominant defensive player initially he signs with the Rams and plays next to maybe the most dominant interior lineman since possibly Joe Green and instead of racking up huge numbers he has fewer sacks than Dupree. That is just unthinkable. Jerry Rice 4x SB winner, all world receiver though declining he goes to the Raiders were we would assume he could still ball but he drops off the face of the planet. Again it is just unthinkable.
     
  9. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone predicted 163 tackles, 7 sacks and 2 interceptions.
     
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  10. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    Your examples are has-beens, not rookies. That's what makes this situation unique. The idea that a rookie could plug into a system and become an All Pro on one team but not scratch the starting lineup on another (which has been suggested) speaks of a systemic problem that won't be straightened out as long as Tomlin, ect are in place.
     
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  11. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    Exactly.
     
  12. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the responsibilities of a 4-3 Will are similar to what how the Steelers play their inside linebackers, specifically the role they lost with the Shazier injury.

    I was asked to show a draft listing with Leonard ahead of Edmunds. I provided one. We've seen that Leonard easily managed a move to the middle.
     
  13. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    The slim possibility that Leonard wouldh't have beaten out the corps of mediocrity the Steelers had at inside linebacker last season doesn't really counter my primary argument at all. Leonard demonstrated that he can be an All-Pro in the NFL. Edmunds showed nothing even close to that as a rookie. That the Steelers' coaches might have been stupid enough to keep him on the bench doesn't change what we know now, which is Leonard is a far superior player to Edmunds.
     
  14. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Draft rankings are the basis for your argument and we aren't allowed to use them to counter you? You've been claiming Leonard was a better prospect. Theres enough out there to dispute that.

    I'm not moving any goal posts, my argument has always been that the only ranking that matters is the grade the Steelers had on him and that one season is not enough to make any definitive claims.

    http://thesteelersfans.com/forums/threads/official-2018-draft-day-thread-no-spoilers.19497/

    2018 draft thread, makes for interesting and fun reading, seeing people react on raw emotion and lose their minds over the picks :lolol:

    However, over the course of three days you never once said the Steelers should have taken Leonard in the first. Closest you came to showing interest in Leonard was saying you were hoping he'd have dropped to us after being selected in the 2nd. Never mentioned him again. You did very much want to draft an ILB though and were consistent on hating the Edmunds pick. Lot of people hated the pick.

    Saying the Steelers should have drafted Leonard in the first at this juncture is clearly the benefit of hindsight.
     
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  15. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I never said draft rankings aren't valid. You did. So yes, it is hypocritical of you to try to use them now.

    The grade the Steelers had on him is irrelevant. The question is who is the better player and the answer is Leonard. My argument is that the Steelers made a mistake with that pick. You can always justify a pick by saying you think the team had him ranked there. That doesn't justify a bad pick. Your argument is the same as saying that if the Steelers take who they wanted, it's always a good pick, whether it works out or not. That simply isn't true.

    I said it was the wrong pick and I'm correct about that because they passed on an All-Pro at another position of need to take an inferior player. It's not hindsight. It's what I said at the time and the evidence on my side has only grown stronger since then. You are twisting yourself into some insane rhetorical knots, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. I said they botched the pick at the time and I'm right. Leonard was one of the players I thought they should have taken in his place, but not the only one. He's just the best of the other guys they should have taken instead of Edmunds. I honestly don't remember where I posted about who I wanted instead. I know I posted all over that Edmunds was a mistake.
     
  16. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I said you use them to make your point and then don't expect anyone to use them to counter your false narrative. It's not hypocritical, it's you not grasping the point.

    Second paragraph is wrong too. That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying if the Steelers have a first rd grade on a player and then goes on to play like one, they were obviously right. Not that if the player busts the Steelers are right simply for having that grade on him.

    You never thought they should have taken Leonard in the first, it's right there in the draft thread. You just didn't like Edmunds there.
     
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  17. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    They miss allpros almost every year. Only hindsight informs us that it was a miss. Scribe might have said the Steelers should have drafted Leonard over Edmunds at draft time but no way in he11 that he thought Leonard was going to be allpro last year.
     
  18. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Mitchell had a decent year for the Colts last year, are you happy he is not here anymore?
    Scribe doesn't take into account of strength of schedule, defensive scheme, who is already starting for a team, anything that doesn't push his agenda.
     
  19. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Lambert should have been drafted before Swann, his years at allpro proves it. (Using one of your arguments here.) He even told Swann that (probably making Swann want to prove himself to Jack).
    Oohhh hindsight, makes us all armchair draft gurus.
     
  20. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    I don't follow your Mitchell reference. It doesn't need to be this complicated. The Steelers didn't draft a player that turned out to be an All Pro. That's all. I'm not sure what point Scribe is trying to make, I'm thinking independently.
     
  21. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    The Steelers were never going to draft a ILB who ran a 4.7 and came from a school in the first round, they had been scouting Devin Bush for over 2 years, Bush in their eyes was Shazier's replacement.
     
  22. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    It's not a false narrative at all. There were rankings that had Leonard ahead of Edmunds. That is a fact. Leonard is an All-Pro while Edmunds was a below-average starter as a rookie. The part about Leonard is fact. The part about Edmunds is subjective, but accurate.

    The false narrative was that it wouldn't have made sense for the Steelers to take Leonard. He was the next highest-ranked inside linebacker available. He was on at least some lists ahead of Edmunds. Inside linebacker was every bit as important a need going into that draft as safety.

    When you insist that such rankings are irrelevant and should not be used, then try to use them to make your point, that is absolutely hypocrisy.

    If the Steelers had a first-round grade on a player who could have been taken later, then passed on a better player to get him, they were wrong. Again, go back to the John Stallworth example, the one you keep avoiding because it proves your point incorrect.

    Just because I didn't specifically mention Leonard on one thread on one message board doesn't mean I didn't think they should take Leonard. Your claim otherwise is dishonest.

    None of this changes the overall point. They passed on a player who turned out to be an All-Pro to take Edmunds too early. It was a mistake.
     
  23. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Given the result, they clearly should have taken Leonard.
     
  24. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty much the point. Edmunds was a bad pick because they took him too early and passed on better players, with Leonard being the best example of someone they should have taken.
     
  25. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Not wasting my time with the rest of what you wrote but this, there's actually nothing linking you to Leonards name until Dec 2018 but hey, not hindsight at all.

    You were so big on Leonard that you mentioned him only once, briefly over the course of 3 days during the draft. Never pimped him at all. But you know, keep throwing the dishonest label around :rolleyes:

    I'm going to wager you never even scouted Leonard and the reason you never said the Steelers should have taken him in the first after he was selected in the 2nd was because you cling to scouting reports and know that no one had a first rd grade on him. Then, after seeing him play well, jumped on the bandwagon.
     
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