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Why does Edmunds seem like an afterthought?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Jball, May 30, 2019.

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  1. dobbler-33

    dobbler-33 Well-Known Member

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    All I know is this... Edmunds didn't have a garbage season especially for a rook thrown in early and supposedly taken anywhere from 2-5 rounds early according to some of us know it alls around here.

    The argued other player had a fine season. It really could've been the same if picks were reversed and him here and edmunds in Indy. Hell Mitchell turned in a pretty good season in Indy after being ran out of here based on obvious proof of his production down falls, be them injury induced or scheme (those arguements were made ad nauseum once upon a yesterday as well). A good arguement was made by I can't remember whom that said knowing how things work around here, Leonard may have never cracked the lineup and been a special teamer and that's a dead on shot at a speculative guess being the Steelers ornery ways of keeping on keeping on with guys who aren't gonna hack it in the end game. Matakevich for example could have very well got a hat over the young buck just because that's how things turn up around here at times.

    Maybe Indy has a better approach/scheme to get more out of folks and or to put them in positions of advantage better than we do? Week in vs week out we applaud/lambaste other teams schemes, players, adjustments, and then do the same for our own week to week... Never aligns perfectly but always ends in a scapegoat.

    Had Burnett stayed healthy we may have never saw edmunds to begin with and people would have lost their **** over that even if it was to end up productively awesome... "We wasted a #1 pick that never saw the field etc etc".

    I thought edmunds did well for a rook and expect him to grow quite a bit in year 2 and be very productive however, I also reserve the right to expect him to regress because that's what I've seen on this team the last few years secondary wise particularly.

    Hope for the best but don't get miffed if it trends down I guess. Teams too Jekyll and Hyde for a reason position by position and call after call. Many weird ways of mysticism afoot here folks but I'm betting on a pretty damn good season coming up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  2. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    If that's true, you were one of the few. Let's just say I doubt your seriousness on that one.

    It happens sometimes. Fans occasionally have it right when the team is wrong.
     
  3. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    If that's true, you and most of the others arguing with me on this topic lost a long time ago.
     
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  4. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Why would they be right if Leonard is still better and they passed on Leonard for Edmunds?

    I haven't read the full article yet, but the only real accomplishment in there was playing a lot, which was in part due to injury and the failure of other players. That's not unimportant, but it doesn't justify a first-round pick.
     
  5. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    If they are both first round talents (which they are trust me), then it does justify a first round pick. No more reaching argument , Blast summed it up nicely.
     
  6. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I have seen no reason to trust you on this. What y'all are forgetting is that players who are not first-round values the day they are drafted can turn out to be outstanding. That's a big part of what drafting well is about, getting value in lower rounds. JuJu Smith-Schuster is producing at a first-round level, but what makes that draft pick even more valuable to the Steelers is they got him in the second round. That doesn't mean they made a mistake by waiting until the second round to take him. Correctly balancing his potential to where other times might take him allowed the Steelers to get both Watt and Smith-Schuster.

    Take the old story about the 1974 draft. The way I've heard it told, Chuck Noll loved John Stallworth and wanted to take him in the first round. Of course, Noll was right about Stallworth, who went on to be a Hall of Fame player, but he wasn't seeing the full picture. The scouts and others in the organization convinced him that the Steelers could get Stallworth later, but if they wanted Lynn Swann, they had to take him in the first round. They were right and the Steelers ended up with two Hall of Fame receivers instead of one. Even though Stallworth turned out to be a Hall of Fame player, the right decision was to wait.

    I still think the Steelers could have had Leonard and Edmunds, taking Edmunds in the second. I've stopped bothering with that part of the discussion because I can't prove it. Does anybody here think the Steelers wouldn't be better off with Leonard and Edmunds rather than Edmunds and Washington?

    In the worst-case scenario with that plan, somebody does snatch Edmunds and they end up with Leonard and Washington, which is still a better pair than what they ended up with.
     
  7. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I was basing it on if he takes the next step and talking about the argument that the Steelers reached for Edmunds. You and others can still prefer that they took Leonard but that doesn't mean the Steelers reached should Edmunds play at an All Pro level.

    We'll see if he does but I think his play will be reflective of first round talent.
     
  8. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    The only problem with your thought process and something AQL has been trying to say is that Leonard wasn't going to be drafted by the Steelers. After the combine he obviously didn't check off the boxes for the Steelers. Maybe it was the small school, maybe it was scheme, maybe they did just blow the opportunity but he wasn't in their draft plans. So yeah they could have waited and got Edmunds but they weren't going to draft Leonard right or wrong. Should they have based on his all pro rating? Possibly but unless we can hear the reasons the pro football sports writers chose him as an all pro it is tough to know how he would have faired.


    Edit: I also meant to add that after reading an interview I think Wexell did with Cam Heyward I get the strong impression that last season heading into FA and the draft that the FO was kinda hoping to just bandaid the spot and holdout hope that Shazier wasn't hurt as badly as he was. The using 3 guys to replace one comment. That makes it seem like in at least that respect they were wrong if they thought ILB wasn't a need.
     
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  9. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    The Steelers did meet with him but I don't think he was ever in their plans for the first rd. I think they felt with Bostic, they could look at other positions.

    I've yet to see anyone with a first rd grade on Leonard.

    Here's a film breakdown on Steelers Depot. They had him as a day 3 pick. They felt he would have to sit and learn which they were clearly wrong about but their overall evaluation seems to fit with most of what I have looked up on him.

    https://steelersdepot.com/2018/04/2...rofiles-south-carolina-st-ilb-darius-leonard/
     
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  10. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Correct. Pittsburgh did indeed meet with Leonard. They also had a pre draft visit with him. Whatever happened with that visit though must have sealed his fate on not being selected. In Keith's scheme, a linebacker needs to do EVERYTHING. Leighton Vander Esch, RoQuan Smith, RaShaan Evans and Tremaine Edmumds all likely fell into this category. Darius likely didn't. All this said, one major issue.



    The interest overall simply was not high enough. An unknown scout met with him at the South Carolina state Pro Day. Pittsburgh brought both Colbert and Tomlin at Terrell's Pro Day. Those two alone already had him in the driver's seat to be picked by Pittsburgh. Adding in the likes of Butler and Jerry Olsavsky?!?! That interest in Terrell skyrocketed. For an even better comp, Pittsburgh had just about everyone to see Devin Bush Jr. Within that point, I had a very strong feeling he was going to be the pick even though J still had Byron Murphy as the odds on favorite at the time.



    I honestly do not know how many more times I can state this. Terrell was not meant to start. Morgan Burnett was. Terrell was supposed to be the DIME until he got comfortable enough to be moved into the Strong Safety role. Sadly, circumstances did not allow that to happen. Terrell ended up starting. That said, he got better in spite of the early season woes. To me, his second go around will be better than his first; much better in fact.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  11. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Nothe sure the sit and learn part they were wrong on. He showed that he definitely had what it takes to play a 43 MLB but was he ready for playing either side in a 34? Would he have been given the opportunity to show he was ready? Remember TJ came from a 3-4 system and still had a learning curve with the terminology as well as some of the plays. Dupree is still having adjustment issues since he went from DE to OLB in college to OLB in one of the original 34 defenses.

    Given that Matthew Thomas didn't even see the field after making the 53 and he had way more athletic ability than Red and maybe even Fort it's not a given that despite how well Leonard showed that he would have gotten playing time barring injury.
     
  12. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    WattWack?
     
  13. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody had Leonard going in the first round, I can see the reach for Edmunds in the first, he's a 220 lb safety that runs a 4.4.
     
  14. Utpittsburghfan

    Utpittsburghfan Well-Known Member

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    Did Edmunds <snip> or kick your dog? Otherwise there is no reason to keep whining like this.....

    Mod Edit: Not acceptable.
     
  15. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    It is wildly optimistic to suggest Edmunds could play at an All-Pro level given his performance to this point. Read my post in response to Roonatic, just above this post of yours. It's a better explanation of why it would still be a reach even if Edmunds does become a very good player, especially if Leonard continues to be better.
     
  16. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    So now you are willing to say that a guy who was taken in the second round and went on to be earn All-Pro honors as a rookie might have struggled because a guy who wasn't even drafted failed to make it? You're talking about learning curve and Leonard proved he could handle one by performing so well in such a demanding role as a rookie while Thomas is widely regarded as a player who lacks intelligence. It's a terrible comparison.
     
  17. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    None of this counters what I've been saying. I've pointed out that Edmunds only started due to injury many times.

    What exactly is it that the All-Pro can't do?

    My point all along isn't that the Steelers evaluated Leonard correctly and simply chose to go another direction. My point is that they made a mistake,whether it be what they chose or in the evaluation process, probably a combination of both. That they may have never been interested in him, at least not that high, is irrelevant. The point is they should have taken him. The evidence was on the field all of 2018.
     
  18. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    How does any of this contradict my claim that they made a mistake? If they did it hoping Shazier would come back, that was stupid.

    The bottom line is the thing you glossed over. They blew the opportunity to draft a player who was an All-Pro as a rookie to take a lesser player. The rest is just noise and wishful thinking.

    Oh, and to the guy who posted something that got deleted, I have zero problem with Edmunds. I saw flashes of ability and I think he can be solid. I have a problem with taking him in the first round, but I don't have an issue with the player.
     
  19. PitJax

    PitJax Active Member

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    I almost never comment on The Steelers Fans, but I wanted you guys (and women) to know, that this is one of the best discussions I have read.
     
  20. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    You are right it is a terrible comparison which is why I didn't compare the two. I gave evidence of the coaching staffs willingness to play a lesser talented player over someone with more athletic gifts. You seem to believe that the all pro honor trumps everything and makes Leonard a transcendent player who is above scheme and coaching. Again the fact that he earned this honor playing for the Colts doesn't mean if he had been drafted by the Steelers he would have been a starter or even a midseason replacement. Not even a sure thing that he would have received all pro attention since the sports writers would have unfairly compared him to Shazier. I concede your point that Leonard more than likely could have beat Matakavich and Fort and even eclipsed Bostic by the end of the year but the evidence of Tomlin/Butler's history shows that time and time again they go against the grain on what is good for the team.
     
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  21. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that it did contradict your claim that's a separate discussion. I said the problem with your thought process in this response is that it supposes that Leonard was in the Steelers draft plans which he wasn't. I mean yes if they had waited they could have gotten Edmunds later but after the big 3 for ILB were gone they were more than willing to ride out the season with Bostic and Burnett as that hybrid safety/linebacker. Right or wrong it's what they did.
     
  22. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    It’s interesting how often this Leonard vs Edmunds debate pops up, and how deeply folks will entrench to support their positions. I think it’s simply too soon to tell. The early evidence suggests that Leonard would have been a better pick, but the early evidence is just that: early. One year does not make or break a 1st round draft pick (except in cases where the player can’t cut it at all). First round picks are under the team’s control for up to 5 years, so they need to be drafted with a long-term view. If Edmunds is the better pro a few years from now, then the Steelers did not make a mistake.

    For the record, I didn’t want either guy. I wanted Justin Reid once the top LBs went off the board before our pick.
     
  23. TerribleTowelFlying

    TerribleTowelFlying Staff Member Site Admin

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    You should read here more often. :)
     
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  24. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    You forgot the green font.
     
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  25. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    He doesn't have to make All Pro this year, I was just using it as an example.

    Watt didn't make All Pro last season, is anyone going to suggest that he isn't playing like a first rd pick?

    It will never be a reach if Edmunds plays at the level of a first round talent.

    As for your response to Roonatic, it would be great to have Leonard and Edmunds but there is absolutely no way to know if Edmunds would have still been there when they picked in the 2nd.

    Whether Leonard or Edmunds should have been the pick is a different argument.
     
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