Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Jball, May 30, 2019.
I mentioned Mitchell because he was horrible his last year as a Steeler but found success in a different system. Steelers needed lbs & safeties that draft & decided to move on from Mitchell, hence Edmunds in the first round. They most likely knew that Burnett wasn't 100% so after their plans to trade up for one of the three "Big Name" lbs fell apart, they went for our other biggest need on defense, safety.
Steelers miss most allpros on draft day. Until they hire Scribe to tell them they are making a mistake, they will continue to not draft players that turn out to be all pro. Most players that are close to a guaranteed allpro on draft day are picked in the first 5 picks (excluding QBs).
This was a chance to draft an All Pro who wasn't in the top 5, a rookie All Pro no less, and a position of desperate need. When Colbert stated that they didn't do enough to replace Shazier, that was code for "we should have drafted Darius Leonard".
How about you give Edmunds more than one year to see how he plays, we have Bush, so who cares about Leonard?
Yeah because they knew Leonard was going to be a rookie All-Pro .
I guess you haven't read my other posts in this thread about this topic, but that's okay.
Also, Colbert made that statement well after the season was over, well after Leonard was an All Pro.
I never said I was that big on Leonard. I said I thought they should have taken him over Edmunds.
Prove that I'm lying. Oh wait. You can't, but that didn't stop you from posting fiction about me. In this very post you are making things up to attack me rather than posting on topic. That is absolutely dishonest and it is far from the first time in this argument you have taken such an approach.
The worst part is you are clinging to this smaller point in the larger argument because you know the facts favor me regarding the larger point. Leonard is clearly better and it isn't close. That is a fact right now. Your claim that it wouldn't have made sense for the Steelers to draft Leonard is also clearly wrong. Inside linebacker was every bit as much of a need as safety. There are draft rankings that listed Leonard ahead of Edmunds. The Steelers had signed injury-prone veterans at both positions, but Burnett was clearly viewed as the better player before 2018. Based on everything we knew going into that draft, it would have made more sense to draft the linebacker.
I'm not guessing about things you have said or not. I leave the fiction writing to you. I'm just pointing the flaws in what you have actually posted.
So yes, I will continue to throw around the dishonest label where it is deserved. I'm not the one making up stories about other posters here. That would be you.
Bush is far from a sure thing. Leonard is a sure thing. He proved he can play in the NFL at an All-Pro level. Passing on him forced the team to pay an extremely high price to get Bush.
I never said I was giving up on Edmunds. I still hope he can be a good player. That doesn't mean the Steelers didn't botch the pick.
Mitchell was injured most of the time his final season as a Steeler. Also, there was no indication at all that the Steelers knew of an injury to Burnett. Inside linebacker was every bit the need as safety going into that draft. Burnett did have a history of injuries, but so did Bostic. This argument that they needed a safety more is just revisionist history you and Blast are trying to push. That wasn't the case at all at the time, but you're using hindsight on Burnett to try to sell a false narrative.
You honestly cannot use Leonard's All Pro year against the Steelers picking Edmonds. OK you can throw all of last years Pre Draft crap out there if you wish, but a simple sample....Walter football had Leonard with a 2nd to 3rd round grade, the same sight said pro scouts were well aware of Terrell (though his brother was getting all the attention), and thought Terrell would go high in the second round. With that alone, his pick at the end of the 1st round was not a reach...he very well would not have been there in the 2nd.
My point..the draft is a crap shoot. Know one knew Leonard would develop into an All Pro his rookie year, he might have been lost in the Steelers system, hell the Colts are going 4-3 this year, how will he handle that? No one knows. Edmonds was thrust into a difficult role, at times looked lost (as did most of his teammates), but you could see his improvement. Edmonds is good, and has a chance to be spectacular. Will he be? With the new supporting cast around him I think he will shine this year.
BTW the same writer at Walter football said he believed Terrell would be an All Pro one day. That has yet to be scene, but others recognized the talent he has, just saying.
Again, who knew Leonard was a sure thing in last year's draft? You did not. the Colts did not. My goodness if we all had your ability in hindsight the Steelers would have All Pros at every position.
Actually, yes, I can use the results in my argument because they are relevant. There were rankings that had Edmunds higher and rankings that had Leonard higher. Leonard is the superior player right now and it isn't close. This idea that a guy who was an All-Pro last year would have been lost in some other system just doesn't hold up at all.
Also, Edmunds is not good yet. He may be, but at the pro level, he still has work to do to get to the point of being good.
It's not hindsight when you say the pick is the wrong guy at the time. I'm using evidence that has come up since the draft that supports my claim. The Steelers passed on an All-Pro at a position of need for a lesser player at another position of need. The rest is just noise.
But hey, the other side is relying on fiction writing to attack me while I keep presenting what actually happened on the field last season.
If I write some interesting fiction, can I drop the mic, too?
Of course not.
While we are playing the shoulda game, other notable All Pro 2nd rd picks the Steelers should have taken in the first rd:
2015 S Landon Collins over Bud Dupree
2016 CB Xavier Howard over Artie Burns
I called it at the time
Or Leonard just had a better year than Edmunds and is not a perennial allpro that can thrive in all defensive schemes.
Keep clinging to your fiction. It's all you've got.
You've lost this argument on the larger point. Taking Edmunds was a mistake because the Steelers passed on an All-Pro at a position of need to take him.
Now some of you want to sell a narrative that the Steelers were always waiting on Bush as Shazier's replacement? Seriously? (To be fair, that was somebody else's post. You just agreed with it.)
To use your favored tactic, it's funny, but I don't see any posts by you in April or May of 2018 claiming that it was okay that the Steelers didn't get inside linebacker help in the draft because they were destined to get Devin Bush in 2019. Did I miss that post?
You've lost multiple smaller points. One example was when you claimed that it would have made no sense for the Steelers to take Leonard. You asked me to provide evidence of a draft listing that had Leonard ahead of Edmunds and I did. You falsely suggested that the team didn't need an inside linebacker even though that was clearly a priority heading into the draft and they only settled on Edmunds because the guys they really liked at ILB were gone. Or do you want to argue that they wouldn't have taken Edwards or Vander Esch given the opportunity? The Steelers' mistake was in rating Leonard too low and Edmunds too high. That argument of yours relies entirely on hindsight, specifically Burnett's injuries in 2018, conveniently forgetting that Bostic was every bit as injury-prone during his pre-Steelers career. I shredded that point of yours and you have avoided it it rather than acknowledge being wrong.
By your own admission, I did criticize the Edmunds pick immediately, so I was right from day one no matter what other noise you want to throw at me.
You lost the larger argument and on at least one significant smaller point, but by all means, cling to the fiction you wrote about me. I'll stick to the truth.
Now please try to answer this honestly. Based on the evidence we have at this point, who is the better player? Is it Leonard or Edmunds?
The post I was responding to claimed that we can't use on-field performance in 2018. Clearly we can because it is relevant. Please do better in understanding posts to which you are responding.
To this point, based on the evidence we have, who is the better player? Is it Leonard or Edmunds? Please try to answer honestly.
It appears someone has a lot of time on their hands this summer.
Honestly I cannot answer who is a better player because I don't have enough data to make a educated guess. Leonard had a better season is all that I personally can conclude. I believe that Edmunds has allpro potential based on his measurables but still iffy on how well he sees the field.
I even said please when I asked you to answer honestly. Apparently, I expected too much. You can't even admit that the All-Pro is better than the below-average starter right now.
Looks like someone is all sad pandas and throwing a hissy fit for it being pointing out he made a bogus claim. Before I unpack what you wrote, to be clear, I went into the that draft day thread to gauge the temperature of Leonards. I'm pretty big into the draft and didn't recall anyone talking Leonards up. It became clear though while I was doing that, you either misremembered your position or flat out lied. I'll leave it to the board to decide which.
Now on to your post full of bs.
Not sure what post you are talking about, is it in this thread? I know I never have agreed with any post the way you have it worded. Most likely, I was agreeing with them having scouted Bush since 2017, and they have, it's been reported on. They've liked him for a long time.
Sorry you stayed up all night looking through 2 months of posts or maybe you're just fibbing again? Anyway, you wouldn't find any because I never made any such claim.
Oh no, Scribe has said I have lost on multiple smaller points, whatever will I do
This is that whole opinions thing that you struggle with. I believe the Steelers, with their offseason moves were trying to put themselves in position where they'd be free to go in multiple directions in the first. I think absolutely they would have taken Vander if he was there but not make a huge reach for Leonard. Remember, we are talking about draft Leonard, not All Pro Leonard, a guy I saw going as low as the 4th rd by some. At that point, it didn't make sense anymore to take ILB in the first.
You obviously didn't like Edmunds there, you're right, you've been consistent with that, I of course disagree with your evaluation of Edmunds. I believed that Edmunds would have gone in the 2nd rd but I loved the prospect and what he brings to the table so I was ok with them taking him at 28. You are practically into the 2nd rd anyway. You yourself though can't make that claim for Leonard because you had no idea who he was past a position rank chart you were looking at. Also, as Jeh pointed out, there was as at least one 1st rd grade on Edmunds, I recalled seeing one at some point too but didn't want to waste time searching for it so stuck with the 2-3 rd grade most had on him for our debate.
It's sad that you think this proves something but obviously Leonard. Let me help you out though, Edmunds can still turn into the player they hoped they were drafting and quite frankly, he probably will.
The honest, truthful claim you should be making Scribe, is that you wanted them to go ILB in the first round and given how Leonard played his first season, you wish they'd have taken him.
Yes, you are expecting too much. You are expecting me to agree with you, not what i honestly think. Think about your approach with posters Scribe, your getting sloppy with chastising whomever disagrees with your bogus points.
I'm not sad at all. You're overestimating the value of your opinion. You keep flailing around trying to cover up for a lost argument. You have tried moving the goalposts and failed. You have tried focusing on smaller points after losing the larger argument and failed. You have tried misrepresenting my posts and reality and failed. It must be very frustrating for you.
I presented my position accurately. You haven't come close to proving otherwise. You are once again relying on making things up to attack another poster because you can't handle losing an argument.
You also just moved the goalposts again. What you previously claimed was that it would have made no sense for the Steelers to draft Leonard. Now you want to shift it to an argument that they had set themselves to be able to draft at more than one position, a point I never disputed. You are claiming that some had Leonard going in the fourth round, but the same is true of Edmunds. I showed you one draft listing that didn't even have him among the top 100 players available. Does it hurt your back to drag the goalposts all over the place like that? It's not just me saying you lost on multiple points. That you keep moving the goalposts on that one shows you know it, too.
I'm not struggling with opinions. I just know they can be wrong, a concept that seems to be beyond you.
I knew Leonard was an extremely productive college player and the next inside linebacker on the board. I knew he was ranked higher than Edmunds in many places. I did not realize he would be an All-Pro and I never claimed otherwise. Unlike you, I've been honest throughout this entire discussion.
Oh, and the post you falsely claim you didn't agree with was one by steelersrule on page nine of this thread. He said the Steelers had been scouting Bush for two years and were always looking at him as Shazier's replacement and you agreed.
You are spending an awful lot of time coming after me and you are under the false impression that I am doing the same. It really doesn't take that much effort to counter what you are putting out there.
That Leonard is better does prove something. I give you credit for at least being more honest than Roonatic.
My truthful statement is that I hated the Edmunds pick and Leonard was one of the guys I thought they should have taken in his place. He isn't the only one I had in mind, but he's the one who has had the most success since then. I made that a focal point because it helps to illustrate what the Steelers lost by reaching for Edmunds.
According to you, it is a bogus point to say the All-Pro is better than the guy who only started due to injury and even at his best was largely invisible? I was actually being charitable in saying you weren't being honest there. The alternative is that you simply don't know what you are talking about.