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Who Wants Bell?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Steelers '08, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Buddy I know what an insult is but I'll drop it.

    And Steeler fans aren't speaking for me in our discussion. I never said anything about knee injuries or Bellichick.

    I didn't say you were concerned about a pitch count, why would you be, you said he didnt want to be run into the ground as a reason he didn't want to be traded, implying that his new team would do that to him. Never would have happened, even if they gave him the same work load as the Steelers, it wouldn't amount to running him into the ground in 6 games. Bell said he wanted to avoid a heavy workload by sitting out some games, mission accomplished. It's irrefutable that he'll have less wear and tear if he signs now then if he played from day 1.

    Obviously Bell would prefer not to play any snaps on the tag, I never argued he did. But Bell said in the beginning of the year he wanted to cut his workload down, no one thought he meant sitting out the whole season, everyone has been under the assumption he would sign before the deadline. We have a week to find out if he will.

    I personally think he was only planning on missing a game or two until the line spoke out against him, he was reportedly very upset they did that.
     
  2. ST-ILL-ERS FAN

    ST-ILL-ERS FAN Well-Known Member

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    Clay Matthew's and Terrell Suggs are on the back end of their careers not their prime. Randall Cobb has never even been a top 20 receiver (he's not even the best on his team). Mosley is good, but I dont know about him playing under a tag. The bigger question is if hes that good why havent they signed him to a reasonable long term contract??? What are they waiting on?? I'll tell you...their hoping the next guy up will be a stud so they can dump him and not have to pay him. So you gave mostly bad examples. Try better next time.

    As for Bell lying. He didnt lie about anything. He simply changed his mind which he is obligated and entitled to do especially when he is not under contract. As an adult arent you entitled to change your mind if you think the decision is for your better good, especially with a family to take care of? He had to be selfish in his decision making because at the end of the day neither you, the organization or anybody else is going to do anything to make sure his future is financially secure should he have a Ryan Shazier incident. If he wants to change his mind 100 times hes well within his right to do that. The same goes for the Steelers front office. Like I've said several times before NOBODY OWES ANYBODY ANYTHING. Bell doesnt owe the Steelers anything and the Steelers dont owe Bell anything. So what's really the problem here? The Steelers have lost nothing in this holdout. They're right where they would be if he had chosen to play. As a matter of fact to this point it's a win for them at least monetarily.


    The real gripe here is between Bell and Steeler front office. The players and the fans really have nothing to do with this. The fans are trying to take a personal issue that doesnt involve them and create a narrative that makes them feel better about demonizing him. So yes I support him for sure because I'm taking the emotion out of it. You're not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  3. Coastal Steeler

    Coastal Steeler

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    Not of yjr best. Lookd like Chit for over a month when he came back last year
     
  4. Frick32

    Frick32 Well-Known Member

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  5. ST-ILL-ERS FAN

    ST-ILL-ERS FAN Well-Known Member

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    I guess you know me better than I know myself because I didnt know I was a fan of Bell and not the Steelers. I guess watching them since the late 70s early 80s dont count for anything but o well.

    Let me show you how ridiculous your comment is and why you clearly walk around with black and gold colored glasses on. Conner hasn't even played a full season yet, so why would he gripe about the number of touches hes getting? Hes also never made it to a pro bowl nor made 2 first team selections. If he continues on the current pace, then one ...if not both are sure to happen if he finishes the season. That said, he doesnt have the leverage to pull what Bell is doing...not that he would, but you see how remedial your comment looks??

    ...but lets leave Conner out of this, because frankly it has zero to do with Conner. He's not better than Bell. Hes just having a better season than Bell ever had up to this point...just like Mahomes is having a better season than Brady, Rogers, and Brees, but hes not better than them.

    Regardless if Conner was here or not there would still be a contract dispute because Bell felt he had done enough to get the guaranteed money (whatever it was) he had asked for. I honestly think the Shazier situation reinforced his belief that he really needed to make this a playing field about himself, no disrespect to his teammates. He had already played two years under the cap with no contract, now hes being asked to do a third. I mean to me this isn't rocket science, but you guys make it seem like it is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  6. Frick32

    Frick32 Well-Known Member

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    A few more free agents...

    Cameron Wake
    Anthony Barr
    Eric Kendrick
    TJ Yeldon

    Point being there are 100 +/- players on their last year of their contract and no hold-outs.

    Bell had $14+ million guaranteed this year...$4 million more than what his supposed offer was from the team...no one would have thought for a minute if he signed and got injured for the 5th straight year that he was a bum...they would have stood by him...like they are standing by Shazier (since you like to bring him up)

    Also like you said...nobody owes anyone anything...however to take that stand against the Steelers is a little unfair...they fronted AB money, they game Shazier money...and you have ignored my question on when have the Steelers abandoned a star...only one that comes to mind is Rod but they wanted him to change positions he refused he played what one more year as a CB and then was moved to safety as what the Steelers wanted to do in the first place.

    Steelers have always taken care of their own...might be in another thread but Bill B is being praised on cutting bait on his own players to get draft picks and the Steelers hold on to their players too long...why do they hold on too long...because they take care of their own players unlike almost any other team in the NFL.
     
  7. Frick32

    Frick32 Well-Known Member

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    I’m done with this other than one question...

    Would you pay a player that has been busted twice in the last 3 years for drugs and the next one would mean paying him $45 million in guaranteed money without anyway to recoup that money?

    Also a player that has had 2 knee injuries and has missed multiple games each of his 5 years in the league.

    Also a player who asked for $13 million then wanted $15 million and then wanted $17+ million...every time the Steelers offered what he wanted he up’d his asking price.

    Bell has easily become the most hated Steeler (hopefully former Steeler) of all time...so he is #1 in that area as well
     
  8. Clive From PIT

    Clive From PIT

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    Sorry, but I’ve not posted that.

    My point was/is that the Steelers offered Bell a large contract with a relatively low percentage of it guaranteed. They’ve always offered contracts along those lines. There’s no history of outrage about the club consistently lowballing players. When people hear “lowball”, they think of offers for well below asking price—i.e., the main figures, not the details like guarantees, incentives, bonuses, and the like. I responded in that vein.

    I’m unsure how you’d structure that. If the contract guarantees a lot of money to a player, then he gets it. If he then violates a drug clause, the club is stuck chasing the player to pay (at least part of) it back. Assuming he hasn’t spent it by then. I can’t see a front office putting themselves in that position.
     
  9. ST-ILL-ERS FAN

    ST-ILL-ERS FAN Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to work backwards with my responses to you. It's going to be simpler that way for me.



    I would pay the 45 million guaranteed (if i knew what I had for certain with Connor, but didn't like it) because if I'm not mistaken as part of the CBA agreement all suspensions are without pay. I believe teams are also able to void contract guarantees for an exhaustive list of defaults by the player. PED usage, substance abuse, conduct detrimental and personal conduct suspensions are usually among the numerous defaults. Typically, any guarantees in current and future contract years immediately void with a default. The player will still have the opportunity to earn to the salary that is no longer guaranteed on a non-guaranteed basis. The only stipulation that typically only guarantees these contracts is injury only it appears from what I've seen. If I'm not mistaken the money is still paid on a game by game basis even with guaranteed money. They don't get all the guaranteed money all at once first game of the season. So there's no threst to have to recoup anything as far as I can tell.

    Notice I had to preface what I would pay based upon what I knew about Connor. Well if Bell had chose to play we would never have known about Connor. Would it have been fair to franchise tag arguably the best running back in the league for a third straight season?? I don't think so, but thats how business works. I'm not mad at the Steelers because of the position they took. I'm disappointed that everybody feels like Bell had to sell out his future earnings in lieu of having no guarantee from the team he was currently playing with. We don't know what the original terms of his contract were from beginning of talks until now we just know that not much of it was guaranteed. Much of what we have heard or read has been more speculation than anything else. Much like the rumor he won't report next Tuesday, but people are running with it. I prefer to just take a wait and see approach

    Like I said ...my giving Bell the contract had to be predicated on what the team knew about Connor first. The Steelers had to string Bell along until they found out so they had to compensate with a higher franchise tag. Like I said this thing goes both ways don't try and pretend like it doesn't. It's like stringing a girl along you like to date, but don't want to marry. How long you think you can keep giving her gifts before she says enough is enough I want the ring now?? It's reached that point with Bell. I could care less that he kept upping his asking price or not...only the guaranteed money makes a difference. That's why you don't go to a dealership and tell them how much you want to pay a month. There like ok. Cool. Next thing you know you're paying 7 years for a lemon.

    Me personally, I'm not holding his past injuries over his head if I declare him healthy and able to play at the beginning of a season. So that's no excuse to withhold a guaranteed contract, based upon something that can happen to anyone at anytime. Clearly the Rams weren't concerned when they gave Gurley all that guaranteed money and his injuries have been just as serious as Leveon's
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  10. ST-ILL-ERS FAN

    ST-ILL-ERS FAN Well-Known Member

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    Once again, you're talking about players that dont compare in any way shape or form to Bell not just in terms of talent and what they have brought to the table for their teams, but in terms of their current contract situation. It's like you haven't done your homework at all, but you have this very thorough opinion on what should and should not be. You're just throwing names out there hoping their situation each time is similar to Bells and none are. Every single one of those players you named were under a contract with their current teams and were extended before the old contracts ran out. So none of those players were being franchised tagged ...much less on their third year.

    Let's talk about Earl Thomas?? Why not bring him up?? Look what happened to him??

    Let's talk about David Johnson who got 39 million, 30 million guaranteed. Why didn't you bring him up??

    I don't know what you mean by they fronted AB money?? When did they front AB money??

    You act like bringing up Shazier is irrelevant...I'm kinda confused why. I mean it just seems that way like you don't know why I did it.

    I'm not even sure it's worth doing a rundown of players that may or have not have held out with Steelers on contract talks or who they may or may not have taken care of in the past. It's not often their put in a situation where they feel obligated to give money to someone they don't have to or who doesn't deserve it. Its duly noted, but its irrelevant here because Bell deserves the money he's asking for. Let's be clear on that. The ability or the willingness to pay is a whole nother story. Of course they upped the ante on the franchise tag, because they really didn't want to give him the guaranteed money he was asking for on the contract talks so they had to string him along to keep him happy somehow.

    i'm also not sure why you're comparing 14.5 million to 45 million if Bell was to have a career ending injury playing under this franchise tag. They would pay him the 14.5 I'm sure. I highly doubt they would the 45. Which amount do you think goes further?? So why settle for the 14.5 when he can get the 45??

    I' ve said all along if the Steelers dont want to pay Bell thats their prerogative. Their definitely not going to pay him now. We know that, barring serious injury to Conner. I keep bringing up Shazier for a reason. Yeah the Steelers did him a solid, but he isn't getting any more checks. I'm not even sure if the NFL players even get any sort of retirement. Don't think they do. Who knows how much has been spent in medical bills and to provide things to help him adapt to a new way of life which will likely be an ongoing thing for the rest of his life. Remember their had to have been a certain level of comfort that he had become accustomed to and probably anticipated prior to his injury...the Steelers want to low-ball Bell..it's an insult, and I get why they did it, but the vile remarks and anger is unwarranted from fans if you're looking at this from a long term business perspective.

    Like I said, this isnt rocket science, but y'all make it out to be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  11. SteelinOhio

    SteelinOhio Well-Known Member

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    I guess every player should hold out and just never go on the field to avoid a possibility of injury, and we could just all listen to crickets every week. It's not like there are 1695 other active NFL players who potentially take a risk of being hurt as part of their career........oh, wait.
     
  12. FootballAnalyst98

    FootballAnalyst98 Well-Known Member

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    Ne could have held all those players i just mentioned hostage and franchised tagged them like Pittsburgh did with bell. They choose not to franchise tag any of them. I dont even think the have franchised anyone at all I would have look that up. They just either keep the guy or move on. And kony ealy even as a 2nd round pick that's a lot to give up for a guy you decide to cut in training camp. 2nd round picks in the nfl normally are a surefire bet to make the teams roster.. I said they get rid of guys. They trade Chandler jones because they knew werent going to pay him. They traded Jamie collins. They cut lawyer milloy because he wouldnt take a paycut he didnt leave as free agent. Traded Logan mankins who was arguably the best guard in the nfl at the time because he wouldnt take a pay cut. Traded randy moss when he made a problem about him getting a new deal. They just cut cyrus jones who was a 2nd round pick just 2 years ago. He cut that dt domique easley who was their 2013 first round pick in just his second season. It takes us 3+ before we'd esvr cut draft picks that high. Ras I-downling was the first pick in the 2nd round fo the 2011 draft. They cut him after a year he didnt even make it to final cuts the next offseason. They admit mistakes and move on.
     
  13. FootballAnalyst98

    FootballAnalyst98 Well-Known Member

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    Idk how. I would have to look it up but what was the deal they presented last yr far as gurantees go? You think if bell stayed healthy, made the pro bowl, was first team all pro, and voted a top 5 player by his peers and even with how great Gurley played was still universally regarded as the best back in the game he wouldnt become EVEN HARDER to reach a deal with that next year? I saw it coming. If you look at what gurantees ab got in comparison to receivers who got deals before him and after they all far exceed him in guranteed money. People look at the overall contract but not the gurantees. And I disagree with the reasonable deals. I see players signing deals around the league that no way on hell we sign them too. No way we would have gave mack or Donald 100 plus million with the gurantees they got. No way we give ab if he was signing his deal now 65 million guranteed with 95 million overall like the giants gave odell. No way if ben retired and we tried to get cousins we would have gave him 3 years with that 80+ million FULLY GURANTEED. Steelers just dont do that and it's ok. But my thing about it is if there's no franchise tag are we dealing with this?
     
  14. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    What about him? He'll be back next season, injury isn't remotely career ending. You act like players sustain Shazier type injuries every year. How many career ending injuries occur each season?

    They advanced him 2 million in 2015 and 4 million in 2016.

    Again, if he had the rare occurrence of a career ending injury and couldn't live his life on 14.5 million, he is a bigger dunce than I think. You're not going to conjure up a whole lot of sympathy for a guy that needs to live his life that excessively. And the guarantee money was probably only part of the equation but I bet the 70 million wasn't enough either. He wanted 17 million a year by that point, that contract only offered 14 million. And as I said before, we have no idea if the numbers of that contract offer are even accurate. Low balling him my ass, don't believe that for a second, fly's in the face of how they do business. I'll believe them over an ungrateful jackass who rewards the team that gave him a shot by getting two drug related suspensions and then demands the moon during negotiations and acts all butt hurt when they don't cave into his demands. Yeah, he's a stand up guy that one is.

    And for ****s and giggles, lets just assume those contract number are correct, 10 million up front 30 million rolling contract in first 3 years. Now lets say he suffers one of those many career ending injuries that happen every season. How do you know the Steelers wouldn't honor the full 30 million? Because they are such a **** organization? Because thats how they always treat their players? Like Shazier? How about Spence?

    Bell is an a-hole greedy punk. I'll side with the Steelers who have a much better rep.
     
  15. Clive From PIT

    Clive From PIT

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    FWIW, the CBA requires that guaranteed money be put in escrow for the player. The club loses the (present value of the) money at that time. It’s paid out over time to the player to prevent bankruptcy and scamming by “charlatans”.

    [Article 26 (Salaries), Section 9 (Funding of Deferred and Guaranteed Contracts).]
     
  16. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    What you’re missing is almost all of those guys were looking at their 3rd contracts. They had already played 7-10 years in the league. Which is the exact opposite of Bell. Franchising bell makes fiscal sense now. If he was just finishing up his 2nd contract and in the twilight of his career it wouldn’t. FYI Logan Mankins was franchise tagged by the patriots. As was Samuel. As for moss the patriots traded him to the vikings because he was done. The Vikings waived him within a month or so. Feel free to keep making **** up to support a losing argument.
     
  17. FootballAnalyst98

    FootballAnalyst98 Well-Known Member

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    The franchised tagged those guys once. I did clearly state I've seen teams do it once. I've said recently the only time I've seen it happen time and time again was kirk cousins. I've not seen any other team franchise a guy and handle the situation the way we have with bell. Moss wanted a contract. You're comparing him playing in Minnesota with a washed farve to playing with brady? That same year he was traded he had just BURNED a PRIME DARELLE REVIS who no one else in the league could do anything against. They traded him because he wanted a new contract. Not because he was done he had juss came of a pro bowl season and then he went to San fran a few years later and still was a solid wr. And Chandler jones never got a big pay day before he got rid of him. Neither did Jamie collins. You just like the Steelers dont wan tro admit they were wrong. It's why they are STILL dragging this on. No way in hell belichick would let a cloud like this hang over his team. That tag would have been rescinded but in fact it never would have even been placed 2 years in a row after clearly they couldnt come to an agreement the first yr.
     
  18. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    If he was so solid why did the Vikings release him after a month? Derp derp derp

    It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve seen it. It made fiscal sense for the Steelers do so. It also made sense from a player personnel decision. Go into the season without a proven running back or franchise bell for a second season? You keep bringing up all these players and act like the scenarios are the same they aren’t. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

    Randy moss wasn’t solid after joining San Fran? Lmao!
    He didn’t even have 30 catches on the season.
     
  19. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    If he was so solid why did the Vikings release him after a month? Derp derp derp

    It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve seen it. It made fiscal sense for the Steelers do so. It also made sense from a player personnel decision. Go into the season without a proven running back or franchise bell for a second season? You keep bringing up all these players and act like the scenarios are the same they aren’t. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

    Randy moss was solid after joining San Fran? Lmao!
    He didn’t even have 30 catches on the season.
     
  20. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    The more posts on Bell I read, the more I read in the paper, and the longer Bell acts like an Ass, the more I realize the Steelers handled him exactly as they should have. Which is no surprise. Based on the information available, they normally make the fair and right call.

    It’s a business. They are very good at it. On the other hand, Bell is not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. TheTerribleOwl

    TheTerribleOwl Well-Known Member

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    So the media is finally reporting that Bell does not have to sign in order for the tag next year to be the 3rd tag and jump to the exorbitant amount. Pretty damn sad commentary on sports media that this has been a story all year and apparently no one bothered to check the actual CBA.
     
  22. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    Who is reporting this?
     
  23. TheTerribleOwl

    TheTerribleOwl Well-Known Member

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    Aditi Kinkhabwala. 97.3 had a clip of her talking about it.
     
  24. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    Arbitration will settle this. Not pundits who get more wrong than the weatherman. Multiple dummies have said two different things.

    Sometime after the season the Steelers will get an NFL interpretation. Then the Union will grieve it. I believe, as written, the league will win, but I have seen a few Union grievances awarded without any common sense.
     
  25. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but aditi is wrong. We could franchise tag him again or use the transition tag on him.
     

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