Who here is buying Dupree?

Special player or not that is not true, I read it all the time guys has to learn the system blah blah blah. These are pro football players this is what they do for a job they can learn the system. Guys are being traded more and more in season the "learn the system" IMO is way over rated.

I don't disagree with the franchise tag for Bud however I still feel there are others out there that can do just about the same thing if not the same thing and half the price or a whole lot cheaper. I am all in on a 2-3 year deal with one of these guys and saving money for others......

 

I could agree with this if not for the cap situation this year. It's bad, real bad.

 

I’m not overboard against the tag either but I agree that there are quite a few options. You named about 10 of them I thought....

 

I hear ya. You make a solid point.

It's obvious that TJ is going to be more effective with a solid bookend on the other side. One of my points, however, is that TJ would be successful regardless of who is on the other side. I say that because he was successful even when Bud sucked eggs.

My contention is that Bud primarily came on last season because of improved secondary play. It is that contention that makes me believe another pass rusher could also be effective. And there is no guarantee that a replacement at right outside rush end takes our defense back a step. It is just as possible that our defense takes a step back with Bud returning.

I credit our defense's overall improvement to the improved secondary, not Bud finally figuring it out. And with that, it makes little difference who mirrors TJ.

But only time will tell.

 

We don't know if any players can repeat what they did last year. Sometimes players have up and down years for different reasons.

Every player isn't the same. It's not BS when you hear players mention that they feel more comfortable after a year of being in a system and playing with new teammates. It's only natural. Don't be surprised if Minkah say feels more comfortable in 2020.

I am not sure why anyone would want to split up one of the best and most productive pass rushing tandems of the 2019 season? Especially if the Steelers and Bud can make it work from a financial perspective.

 

It is BS cause look how he did this year, he might feel more comfortable but he still stepped right in and played. he isn't the only player ever to be signed and or traded in a season and play....heck we had a few on our team last year.

To answer you questions as to why..........MONEY!!!!!!! Plain and simple money that is why, you think Bud is the only player who can play OLB, do you think the steelers will never find another OLB to replace Bud or Watt? Hard decisions have to be made due to a salary cap, there are options out there and options that can be just as good even if you don't want to believe that. Shaq Barrett says hi........1 year 4 mil come on that was a bargain that NOBODY saw coming. FYI Bud played out of his mind this year 1 out of 5 years isn't bad who is to say he can do it again....who is to say he can't? Same thing can be said about free agents, give me Vic Beasley and I bet you will forget all about Bud,jmo

 

I credit the overall improvement of the defense to being as great as the sum of its parts. With Minkah being the missing piece. You also have to take into account that almost all of the defensive players had great to good years. That’s never guaranteed nor are the amount of TOs that changed the fortunes in many games. We seemed to have a knack for a critical TO at the right time. I think if the D plays great again like a lot of people are already expecting even someone who might not have as good a season as Dupree will still keep this a good to very good D. Of course his replacement can’t be a bum but I think there’s enough good pieces even without Dupree that a replacement will be in a good position to perform.

 

A player who knows the system and has played in it has an advantage over one who has not. You can argue how much that advantage is, but you can't argue that it exists. Your use of Fitzpatrick as an example doesn't hold up because you can't expect every player to match what a special one does.

The problem with your latter plan is that they have to decide on the tag for Dupree before they see how the market develops for those other options.

 

Hey NY STEELERFAN.

I think Bud became "Good" not "Great" this year, IMO. Again, IMO, This is, because of the added parts that were placed around him on the "D" as a whole. So, was this an illusion or reality? I hold to the theory that the new "D" pieces made him, and everyone else, on the "D" better, with the exception of Edmunds (ugh!). That is another topic for another day. It does not take someone five years to learn a system. You would think that most people show improvement at their place of wok as the years and experience flows on. No different for Mr. Dupree. So, why all of a sudden the so-called "Break-Out" year?

He had four years to get it together. Now I realize he was hurt, I believe in Year #3 (Not sure exactly when and what). However, I will give him that as a set back. Okay then he had three years out of the first four to get it together. They even switched sides on where he was to play. Once again, he had a "Good" year not "Great" IMO. He still went games this season when you did not hear a peep out of him. Given that, that is okay. He played well enough to earn a spot as a starter IMO.

I know that some folks say it was a contract year and that it was the money that inspired him to turn it up. I can't buy that theory. It would be too risky for any employee, at any job, to do that. This, knowing that the boss could pull the plug on you at anytime. Now given that, Management was probably going to stick with him all the way through Year #5 because of the Jarvis Jones debacle. Four years wasted there. The first four wasted with Bud. That is almost a decade to find that other complimentary "Bookend" OLB

As you are stating here, I agree, lets give him that one-year tag and see if he can duplicate it or do even better. I am down with that. We have a good thing going with this "D" right now. We have to keep it together. Let's say we do and Ben comes back to Pre-Injury form. IMO we are a very, very good football team. We have good skill-position players on the "O". They just need to all get on the field at the same time and stay healthy. It all comes down to the QB.


STEELWINDS AKA The East Side Kid

 

Hey thesteeldeal.

Yeah, I agree with the addition of Minkah playing a key role in the vast improvement of our Defense. I will go a step further in that the addition of Nelson was good and was a snowball effect to produce an even better Haden. Barron was another good addition, IMO. The back-ups to Tuitt stepped-up big time. Hopefully, Tuitt returns to Pre-Injury form. He was on a tear. Even with Edmunds sub-par play, the new additions were able, for the most part, to make up for his inadequacies.

I have also come to the realization, that since our Front Office has a horrible track record of drafting Secondary Personnel, let other teams do it and then lets make a deal with them to acquire them somehow through Free agency or Trade. Someone, I forget who, last week or so posted an article from a Pittsburgh newspaper that documented how many DBs we drafted throughout the Tomlin years that did not pan out. It was like either 14 or 15; which came down to zero successes! That is disgusting, embarrassing and inexcusable. For the record, I am not putting all of the blame on Tomlin for this debacle. I am pretty sure there were other Steeler employees in the drafting process that are responsible for all of these busts.


STEELWINDS AKA The East Side Kid

 

I get what you are saying about him being special and I don't disagree that a players in the system has an advantage all I am saying is players do it a lot. There are guys signed on Tuesday and play on Monday Minkah is not the first to be traded mid season. That is all I am pointing out from a previous post.

Correct the Steeler would have to make that decision to or not to tag him before FA. However like I did several times and other have in this thread there are LOTS of options out there. Clowney, Fowler, Barrett and Bud are all gonna see the big money and there are 8-10 others that are not. Last year 3 players signed 10+ mil a year deals then there was a drop off. That is what many of us are saying. Last year Golden signed for 3.750, Collins 2 mil, Lynch 1.5 and like I said Barrett 4 mil, KJ Wright 7 mil a year. It will be interesting to see what Orchard, Golden and Frackell get cause at 7 mil that could be a bargain compared to Bug at 17 mil. Oh and let me add you would also get another player or two to help other positions on the team making everything stronger.

 

I don't think you can take a bite out of both sides of that apple. Minkah stepped in and made an immediate impact without the benefit of knowing the system and he did it in the middle of the season. And I don't see anyone expecting every player to be special. But Minkah is living, documented proof that good players don't have to know the system to gain an advantage.

 

Hey Glory Days.

I guess in the end "Football is just Football", IMO. I realize that each team has their own "Lingo" and "Systems". However, I often hear traded and drafted players state to the effect: "More or less it is the same Terminology and Schemes that I have played for other teams and in college. Yes, there is some transition period for a player joining a new team. And yes, I am sure that some players pick it up quicker than others. The good ones do and the "not so sharp" ones may take a bit longer. However, again, "Football is Football". There are only so many ways to draw up plays, run schemes, call signals, etc. I really do not want to hear excuses for these guys. They are Professional Football players. The crème of the crop. The upper crust. The top tier at their craft. Do I need o go on. If a player that joins a new team can't get it within a reasonable time then maybe he wasn't the player that we thought he was.

Minkah is an exceptional, very smart and intuitive player. That is why he made the transition from Miami to Pittsburgh seemingly just fine. It may take others longer. However, to use the excuse about changing systems, lingo, play-calling, etc., is a crock of you know what IMO.


STEELWINDS AKA The East Side Kid

 

Yes. Position is also a factor. Minkah had to come in and learn the responsibilities of Safety in our system. There are multiple responsibilities. I believe there were articles written about how he would be brought along slowly and given more as he got more comfortable. Dupree had basically one responsibility.... rush the passer. Looking for a reason why his production was up? Here’s one....Statistically he logged 950 snaps and out of those snaps he rushed the QB 92.2% of the time.

The last couple years both he and Watt have been dropping less because of improved secondary play and less need for smoke and mirrors . A large percentage of those snaps coming against 1on 1 matchups while Watt was getting chipped and double teamed and game planned around. I believe it was Belichick who said you have to know where TJ is on every play. IMO many of those guys you listed would know exactly what they need to do from Day 1 and like you said there’s camp and PS as well. A experienced guy playing with this supporting cast IMO would do just fine while having to spend a lot less cash to get similar production. Guaranteed? No. Is Dupree?

 

Well let me ask you something, you say we have a good thing and we should break it up right? Well we have a good thing 1 out of 5 of his season what is to say if we tag him he will make it 2 out of 6? If we end up tagging him I am fine with that but I would rather let him go than spend that money only because I feel there are some really good players in FA who offer close to if not the same thing as Bud. You just said he had a good not great season well if he didn't have a great season why not spend half that 17 mil on someone to take his spot and use the rest at other positions? I will be interested in what Vic Beasley gets cause I think he would be a beast for us. I am not giving him 17 mil either so I am curious as to what he will sign for. jmo

 

50. EDGE BUD DUPREE
Dupree turned in a career year in 2019. After earning sub-62.0 PFF pass-rush grades in each of his first four seasons, the 26-year-old Kentucky product recorded career-highs in pressures (51), PFF pass-rush grade (76.3) and defensive stops (43). A team will have to buy into the fact that 2019 was a trend and not an outlier to feel comfortable paying him big money in the offseason.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-the-50-best-available-nfl-free-agents-in-2020

 

Well I ain’t comfortable....




Edit: Van Noy please......ok maybe I’m a bit of a dreamer....lol

 

1. 
   1. Shaquil Barrett, Buccaneers
   
   2. Yannick Ngakoue, Jacksonville Jaguars
   
   3. Jadeveon Clowney, Seattle Seahawks
   
   4. Bud Dupree, Pittsburgh Steelers
   
   5. Dante Fowler Jr., Los Angeles Rams
   
   Tags are coming!
   
   While this group looks stacked, keep in mind that the franchise tag is especially popular with edge defenders. Four premium pass-rushers were hit with the tag last offseason, and several will either re-sign or get slapped with the tag in February or March.
   
   However, a Clowney tag doesn't appear to be on the table for Seattle. ESPN's Adam Schefter reported prior to the season that the Seahawks "promised" not to apply the tag to Clowney in 2020 (no word on if it was a pinkie swear), and a tag would be super expensive anyway since the three-time Pro Bowler was tagged by Houston last offseason. Still, it's doubtful they'd let the 26-year-old walk just six months after trading for him.
   
   Barrett, however, is the most intriguing name on the list. He led the NFL with 19.5 sacks in an impressive season in Tampa Bay, and now he's on track to land a massive payday. That situation is further complicated by the fact the Buccaneers might decide to use the franchise tag on Winston.
   
   And there'll likely be options beyond that. Ngakoue has registered at least eight sacks in all four of his NFL seasons. Dupree is coming off a breakout option year in which he compiled 11.5 sacks, and Fowler also had 11.5 sacks in his age-25 season with the Rams. Matt Judon of the Baltimore Ravens made the Pro Bowl with 9.5 sacks, and San Francisco's Arik Armstead finally broke through with a 10-sack season in 2019.
   
   Look for at least a couple of those guys to become available.
   

 

As I said, an exception, not the rule. Expecting other players to duplicate what a special player does is not a sensible approach.

 

Ramsey to the Rames, Williams to the Giants, Bennett to the Cowboys, Sanu to the Cheats and Sanders to the 49ers were some of the mid season Trades.

Most of these guys played right away so it wasn't Minkah being an exception. I will let you do the work and look up their numbers if you don't believe me. I did a quick look and just for example Sanders in just 7 games had 358 of his 869 yds with his new team. It is not as rare as you think, heck Whyte was signed off the street and played for us. I don't by into the whole "need to learn the system", I do think there is a learning curve between a QB and WR which did happen with Brady and Sanu.

 

I would put Ramsey up there among the guys you can consider special. Did any of the others actually make much of an impact? As you admitted, Sanu didn't do much with the Patriots.

I'm not saying the player can't produce. I'm saying the guy already on the team has an advantage. Plenty of free agents or guys acquired in trade never reach the level they had with their previous team, especially if they have to deal with a major change in the system. It isn't just about the learning curve. Sometimes they just don't fit in the new system as well as they had in the old. It can go the other way, too.

It's a minor point in the larger argument anyway. We've seen what this defense can do with Dupree. They can repeat that or get even better by keeping him or possibly take a significant step back with a lesser player in his place. Those are the most likely outcomes because they aren't getting their top choice among the free agents available who could play there. They probably won't even get one of their top five choices given the cap situation. The most likely scenario if they don't tag Dupree is they end up overpaying for multiple years to get some guy who isn't as good as Dupree was in 2019.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong and they have some great, cheap option in mind that will allow them to replace Dupree, who then goes on to be a decent, but overpaid player elsewhere. I just don't think that is as likely to happen.

 

Did you not read all of the post I gave you Sanders numbers and told ya to look the rest up not gonna do the work for you. Yes they had an impact, but lets go back to the beginning when I was talking about this with another poster who said Bud knows the defense. Then I brought up how knowing the system was BS and used Minkah as an example....enter your quote. I am not arguing that people on a team have an advantage that would be stupid cause they do. What I am saying is it is overrated as I pointed out with Minkah and now these others.

Now moving forward lets talk about Bud knowing the defense yes he has an advantage but you mean to tell me someone can't come in and learn it..........Barrett says hi as he just got signed in the off season and shined bright like a diamond. It can and does happen, players have the off season and pre season to learn this. Now back to Bud again he had 1 very good year, nothing says he can do it again and nothing says he can't........that same can be said about bringing in one of these free agents at half the cost. It is a gamble either way and I can see both ways working I am just saying I would rather go a different direction with Bud and get more for that money. jmo

 

Jenkins got to the qb and played in a 3-4. Not too much of a learning curve needed. That's what you look for, a guy that already knows how. He is 26 years old too.That

I have always liked bud. I still like bud, but I see these mistake contracts that are killing us this year and have to say 16 mil is just way too much. it just kills any other signing.

 

https://jetswire.usatoday.com/2020/01/11/jets-2020-nfl-free-agency-olb-jordan-jenkins/

 

they have to get Minkah, Watt, and Heyward shored up on the defense in multiyear deals as they make up the core of this defense. If this is not impacted by franchising Dupree for a year, than I'm game. I do understand that only Heyward is eligible for extension at this time of those names, but case in point.