Where does Ben rank all time?

Too tough to figure out really. "Rank all time" needs to be quantified.

How about "Rank all time in the context of the era and the team they played with", which to me means mostly vs their peers at the time they played.

This would also mean you would have to pass judgement of level of success as far as winning championships. Did they win/gets good stats because of the team around them MORE SO than other QB`s on average? Provokes a question: Is it possible the best QB in the history of the NFL played his career with a below average cast around him and does not show up on any top 25 QB list?

You would need to construct a baseline of average support of factors like defense, running game, receivers he played with.

Sounds like a task for a computer.

Some general takeaway`s, thoughts for me thinking about the above.

1. Since Bradshaw played with a team loaded with Hall of Famers, this would be damning for him to be considered top 5.

2. Got no problem with Brady being #1. Last doubt him not being #1 crushed when he went to Tampa and won without Belicheat.

3. Marino, as far a I remember, never had a strong running game or imposing defense around him. Might rank a little higher than most think.

4. Montana had a great team around him. Might rank a little lower than most think.

5. P. Manning didn`t have particularly strong cast around him, but not bad either. Even though he won two championships, maybe him and Marino are nearly equal, just IMO, and I did get to see both play.

6. Sorry to say, but Ben probably not top 10. Young Ben was great, but too few great years.

 

As you said, Big Ben was consistent in terms of his winning percentage. That is of great importance. However, while that is of great importance, other factors must be accounted for. For example, how many wins a QB has is just as important as the Winning Percentage for the more wins a QB has, the better his percentage can be. It is not an end all be all in terms of Brees vs. Big Ben as Brees possess far more wins but Big Ben bests him with a higher Winning Percentage.


In regards to other contenders within the Top 10?! Favre, Manning and Brady have Big Ben Soundly beat in both wins and Winning Percentage while Favre has him soundly beat in wins. However, in the case of Favre and Brady, both have played longer than Big Ben did. Manning though?! Both ended their years after 18 seasons.


Now, in terms of what I care most about a QB?! As you said, wins and how often you can win. That is of the upmost importance. While wins may not get the QB the stats the want, they will secure the stat they need most to get one step closer towards adding hardware for not just themselves but the entire team.



All this said though, when making a Top 10 list, even wins have to factor as part of the equation and not the end all be all of it.

 

You can not look at just wins. Brees played a lot more games than Ben did. I watched a show on you tube recently about how Ben is considered one of the most underrated QB’s all time. It is a three part series. There were years like 2014 and 2017 where he wa in the top three or five amongst all the major QB stats those years and he was event considered for MVP. The media definetly had a bias against Ben. During that show they did a comparison of Ben with Brees and they said over the course of their careers Brees threw the ball on average 4 more times per game than Ben did. When you factor in their completion percentage , yards per pass attempt, etc. if you add those four pass attempts per game to Ben they have much closer stats from a comparison perspective. That is why you can’t just be about the stats as you are. In a lot of those games Brees could have been losing and as a result throwing for a lot of yards in an attempt to come back. On the flip side of that coin is Ben could have been handing the ball off to preserve a lead. Early in Bens career he rarely attempted over 35 passes a game. They were a power run offense. I will give you Rodgers but no way is Brees or Favre better than Ben. In fact there is a strong debate about Elway. I believe Ben was better than Elway but Elway went to more Super Bowls. I could see putting Ben at 8 and moving Elway and Rodgers up.

The issue I have with Rodgers as I actually do with Marino as well is their lack of Super Bowls or Super Bowl appearances. When evaluating these guys I think it is important to balance in stats , W/L record and Super Bowls. When you factor in just stats you have to look at the number of pass attempts, number of games etc. When you factor those things in Ben is quite comparable to Brees and Favre and Rodgers. Rodgers and Brees are more accurate but that isn’t the end all be all. When you factor in Wins and Super Bowls - Ben has all of those guys beat.

 

Again though, wins and Super Bowls are only two aspects when factoring in players for rankings. There is much more to it than that. Otherwise, merely using those two stats alone can skew the list.

If wins and Super Bowls are all that matter, Tom Brady, Joe Montana and Otto Graham should be , 2 and 3 respectively as few have won more than those three.



Furthermore, I am using stats in conjunction with accomplishments such as Super Bowls and Wins. All aspects must be factored in here. As I have stated, stats don't tell the whole story for anyone; applying to all criteria of all players on any list. What I seek when I rank players is the totality of their careers and not just bits or pieces of information already at hand.



For me, any Top 10 needs to be not just one of exceptional accomplishemt but also stupendous consistency over an extended period of time. Big Ben had his moments and doubly so for his first five season. However, for his whole career?! I have other players whom I deem to be better than him.

 

But you are primarily focused on stats contrary to what you say in your response. Three overwhelming facts that have a significant impact on the cumulative stats of these guys is years played, games played and pass attempts. Favre and Brees have significantly more of all of those than Ben does. When I went back and looked at this I admitted my error with Rodgers and said I would rate him above Ben due to his superior QBR and Touchdowns over Ben in less games. The only area Ben has an edge on Rodgers is Super Bowls. I won’t even give Ben the edge on 4th quarter comebacks because I think Rodgers is so efficient he kept his teams ahead more than Ben thus he didn’t need to comeback.

Ben is pretty high up on the list along just in stats. Favre to me is like Frank Gore at Running Back to certain extent. You would never say Gore is one of the greatest RB’s of all time but his longevity was insane. I’m not saying Favre wasn’t a great QB I’m just saying his stats are inflated by the longetivyt of his career and his insane amount of pass attempts. The same can be said for Brees. Brees was a very accurate QB but he also was the master of throwing the crossing pattern and the slants. I’m not throwing shade at Brees its just very obvious to me when you really dig into what makes up these stats and add in the W/L nd 4th quarter comebacks and SB appearances and Wins it is pretty obvious Ben is the better QB compared to Brees and Favre.

The guy never gets mentioned here is Troy Aikman. The guy had a lot of success but I think he was a high end game manager playing on a loaded team that was a run first offense. Getting back to Ben my only two knocks on him is I don’t think he was a student of the game. I don’t think he was big on preparation which I think that hurt him. I didn’t like that he would often turn the ball over in big games and either put us in the hole and try to have to catch up or throw the interception in an inopportune time trying to comeback. But that was the flip side of his greatness and gunslinger mentality was well.

I loved that never give up attitude Ben had. His amazing pump fakes and relentless scrambling always keeping the play alive. Had prepared more he probably wouldn’t have had to scramble as much or have the late game heroics. When you talk about sheer physical gifts I would place Ben even further up the list and guys like Brady much further down list.

The guy that will probably pass them all is Mahomes. He has the talent, stats and Super Bowls. He is more talented than Ben and yet he doesn’t turn the ball over that much.

 

Something else You are not taking in account.....Is the divisions they played in. While Ben played 3 team from our division have went to the SB, and two have won. While Brees played 3 teams had went from His division, and only His actually won. Brady.....nobody in his division even went. Manning ....one team early in his career, and they lost. This stuff matters. The AFC North has had more 3 teams make the playoffs then any other division while Ben played. That stuff matters. I don't know how it doesn't. Just like ranking a Qb that played predominately indoors to one that played predominately outdoors. That is a huge difference.

 

Give me Ben in the regular season then Bradshaw in the postseason

 

That's a good way to say it. They had very different careers. Bradshaw started out awful and it took him around 5 years to finally become great and he didn't have a long career because of his elbow injury. Ben started out good and stayed that way for around 15 years. I compare them to the 1960's Dodgers who had Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale. Koufax was like Bradshaw he had great talent but it took around 5 years to hit his stride and when he did he was the best in the game. But at age 30 he had to retire because of arthritis in his throwing elbow. Ben's career was more like Drysdale's, he was really good for a long period of time.

 

Nope. I am not, for I have stated that all metrics must be accounted for. Stats are merely one of them. Wins and Super Bowls are another.



I have actually stated repeatedly. Regardless, this is getting both of us no where. You have Big Ben Top 10 all time. I do not.



Agree to disagree please.

 

Correct.


As I have stated, multiple factors need to be taken into account. Ignoring one diminishes the significance of the others; doubly so when factoring in QB. That all said, Divisions by themselves are but a single factor.


Have to include the others for fairness.

 

Of course, they do. They are smart enough to know some idiots want it. That doesn't mean said idiots aren't ruining their pizza that way.

I thought it was just three locations. They have had Squirrel Hill and Mt. Lebanon for as long as I can remember, then they added the one in Allison Park. I have been away for a while. The last time I was at the one in Squirrel Hill, the two brothers who own the place were still there. My wife goes there for work sometimes. A few weeks ago, she brought Mineo's home in a large cooler. Still delicious. (Maybe because it was from the Squirrel Hill location.) No ****ing pineapple.

 

I've put peanut butter on pizza before. That should really blow some minds around here.

 

Hell, I've put cottage cheese on pizza, but I would never do it to pizza that was actually good.

 

Wow I never have tried that before and probably never will. I have put peanut butter on a hotdog before and then chili sauce over the peanut butter. It's pretty good. And I do eat pineapple pizza sometimes. I like the contrast between the sweetness of the pineapple and the spiciness of the pizza sauce.

 

It really is the whole sweet/salty thing. And to be fair, it was only on a half burnt, frozen pepperoni pizza after a night of drinking and debauchery so there's that. It was just as good sober though.

 

This was a fun debate. You swayed me on Elway and Rodgers. I wish I could have laid out the facts more eloquently on the stats side with Ben vs. Brees and Favre. Number of games and pass attempts matter when you look at cumulative stats. At any rate they are all HOF QB’s and we were lucky to have Ben. Hopefully Pickett can carry the torch.

 

Why, and what kind of pizza was it before the added peanut butter???
I would bet nobody eats more peanut butter in a week than I do.

 

It was a cheapo frozen pepperoni pizza. The crispier the better.

 

Now I'm going to try it. LoL

 

Peanut butter on a hot dog? That would give me indigestion for a week!

 

My wife has relatives in Missouri farm country and once while visiting they asked if I wanted peanut butter bread to go with my bowl of chili

I thought they were just checking to see if I was as dumb as I look but apparently they liked it

 

Oh, that is definitely a thing.

 

I will accept that challenge

 

I tried showing a picture of My cabinet with all My peanut butter, but I can't figure how to put it on here. LoL

 

The school district that I went to in Butler County always had chili with peanut butter sandwiches every Thursday. Even today 60 years later when I have a bowl of chili I'll make a peanut butter sandwich to dip in the chili while I'm eating it.