1. Hi Guest, Registrations are now open. See you on the inside.
    Dismiss Notice

What can you coach into, or out of, a player at the NFL level?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Stone, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

    3,688
    546
    Oct 23, 2015
    I know we are only fans and we usually don't have a clue about the complexity of an NFL team. However, I think we all see some glaring fundamental things in key players which make us wonder why these things aren't fixed?

    Is it that the Steelers don't try to change players or are the players unwilling to change?

    James Conner....great potential, runs to upright.......same problem for a long time. Someone needs to work with him to make minor changes and possible huge results?

    Mason Rudolph.....great size and potential but throws from his back foot and always has. Someone needs to work with him to step into his throws and increase the velocity....could produce huge results.

    Diante Johnson....granted it was his first year but he fails to keep the ball high and tight. Something that was beat out of us in high school! Someone could work with him and eliminate the one potential problem he appears to have.
     
  2. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

    21,059
    3,499
    Dec 18, 2016
    I think Johnson is going to be the easiest one to improve if he puts in the work. Part of it is simply getting stronger, something that was a question mark about him coming out of college. He should be able to adjust the way he carries the ball. It's a fairly common issue and I've seen many stories of players fixing such issues.

    I'm not so sure about Rudolph. Part of the issue is how he reacts to pressure. He backs up and focuses on just getting the pass off instead of making sure he is throwing with some steam on it and that's not good. Changing a quarterback's mechanics can be difficult.

    The same is true of running styles. Conner may just be what he is, which sadly is a player who can produce in bursts, but just won't stay healthy enough to even match what he was in 2018.
     
  3. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

    3,688
    546
    Oct 23, 2015
    I hope DJ can learn to protect the ball. He seems on the edge of control quite often.

    I guess I am old-school and I envision a coach (of some sort) taking MR aside and having him step into hundreds of throws per day until it becomes second nature.

    The same with Conner, do drills with him to stress...."if you are in traffic lower the pads"

    It just seems like the Steelers (and possibly all teams) take what they get and hope for the best.....as if it's impossible, or a violation of the CBA, to actually teach a player something that could help.
     
  4. MojaveDesertPghFan

    MojaveDesertPghFan

    7,900
    3,080
    Oct 19, 2011
    Now that you two great thinkers have simplified, analyzed and solved all the Steelers problems (very nicely BTW) I wish you'd turn your attention to lesser matters like solving the Corona 6 Pack Virus dilemma which could have more of an effect on the NFL than the upcoming CBA. I jest a bit but they are already cancelling hundreds of major crowd gathering events worldwide as we speak. And I know, I know.....:offtopic::hijacked: :facepalm:
     
  5. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

    2,766
    576
    Oct 8, 2017
    I have 2 cents that you're all welcome to.

    In general, changing anything at the professional level is difficult. Not only are you working against countless repetitions that very well may have solidified bad habits, but you are also faced with professional egos and psyches. For example, working with a kicker who needs a mechanical adjustment might not be terribly difficult from a physical standpoint, but get inside one of their heads and you might wreck him.

    With that said, working with a receiver to track the ball, extend his hands away from his body, and bring the secured ball to his chest isn't as difficult from a mechanical standpoint because that is a "taught" behavior. Also "taught" is how to properly drop back, plant, and deliver a pass. Neither of those mechanisms is a natural learned behavior like running. That's why changing JC's running style seems nearly impossible to me at this point.

    DJ can run drills and emphasize track/extend/secure on every catch he makes in practice. That can be corrected.

    MR's problem might be as much mental as mechanical, imo. He needs more confidence. He needs more confidence in himself and our offensive line. Granted, our OL needs to do something to instill confidence. Mechanically, you could go old-school and bungee him. Attach a bungee to him, pulling straight back. It forces the qb to stand tall and strong as he drops back. The plant foot has to be stressed and secure or he'll just keep moving backward, away from the line. And then it demands a strong motion forward, off the plant foot, during the throwing motion. His mechanical changes will take an entire offseason, if not a couple. His psychological changes could change immediately, or never. Psychologically, I'd say he's still pretty fragile.

    JC is the least likely to be changed, for the reasons stated above. I think he's pretty much who he is, and who he's going to be. And I don't believe a good number of his injuries were sustained while running upright. He's just injury prone. Luck will keep him healthier than any adjustment.
     
  6. Disco1981

    Disco1981 Well-Known Member

    5,508
    1,764
    Mar 20, 2017
    Agreed Woo Hoo...On Johnson I point to AB...That was the comparison coming out of college..Lots of similarities, Height, weight, competition, very shifty but not blazing speed...The 2 things AB could improve he did...His speed, and in the posters case his strength...Which in turn imo will help his ball security
     
  7. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

    3,688
    546
    Oct 23, 2015
    I will volunteer my services for the "off topic" dilemma and attempt to drink Corona with and without a lime. I am certain that by Cinco de Mayo I will have this issue well in hand:cool:
     
    • Hilarious Hilarious x 1
  8. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

    3,688
    546
    Oct 23, 2015
    Welp, 2 cents is better than nothing.

    And I think your points are accurate, it's just a shame that a guy like MR can't realize that if he continues to throw off his back foot he will be selling insurance pretty soon.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

    8,558
    1,814
    Sep 4, 2017
    Agree. I've seen Mason step into his throw a few times & when he does, the ball has zip on it & much more accurate. He does need to work on his foot work in the pocket, looks like a statue back there.

    Conner seems to me that he wants to hurt the guys coming to tackle him. Not a bad trait to have but you need to be built for it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

    21,059
    3,499
    Dec 18, 2016
    To get to that level, Johnson would also have to become a lot better in shaking coverage. For years, Brown seemed to be open whenever he wanted to be open. Johnson has shown some ability to run good routes and to get open, but nowhere near Brown's level.
     
  11. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

    8,558
    1,814
    Sep 4, 2017
    AB wasn't starting his rookie year. Tough comparison to live up to for any wideout using ABs later years as a milestone. AB has always been clutch though.
    Let's see if Johnson develops some mojo with Ben, who can read the field & lead his receivers. Johnson might be our next allpro if Big Ben doesn't go to JuJu 4 times in a row.
     
  12. 86WardsWay

    86WardsWay Well-Known Member

    16,308
    4,628
    Dec 27, 2012
    In this day and age coaches hands are virtually tied by union representation. Work players too hard and they will cry foul.

    Just watched the Miracle on Ice movie the other night. Herb Brooks put his team to the test and it paid off ten fold. Took a bunch of no name players and turned them into Olympic Gold Medalists by testing their mental and physical abilities.

    Certainly there are tweaks here and there to the players overall performance and a ton of film to go over but for overall successful achievement the coaches have to test their will. Few coaches can do that. I'm pretty certain Mike Tomlin isn't that coach. I will support him nonetheless though and hope he can win a second Lombardi.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

    27,702
    5,276
    Oct 22, 2011
    First you scout and find players that don't have a lot to fix for what you want them to do. Good coaches can fix things wrong with players. Richard Mann helped AB a lot. AB also worked hard on his craft and body. Munchak made Feiler better and many others on the line. Coaches fix things in technique and the players at this level work on those things all year on field and off. It's not just at practice with the coach.

    I remember the story about Kelvin beachum learning to play center here. He would spend hours in his apartment at night snapping the ball.

    Feiler changing his whole body type to play this position.

    It's not like the HS or even college level of reps in practice, these coaches coach what they expect you to do what you need to fix, how to fix it and you better work your tail off to get that right or they will find someone who can. Many pros hire their own coaches in the off season to work on things. :cool:
     
  14. Disco1981

    Disco1981 Well-Known Member

    5,508
    1,764
    Mar 20, 2017
    Not yet...If he gets " close " to Brown, I'll take it...Chestio was the the ****, all his out of his mind personality aside...He was one of the greatest ever to play
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

    7,866
    969
    Oct 22, 2011
    I hope they can coach Mason up on moving around in the pocket and pocket awareness, it’s his greatest weakness right now.

    I fear that it’s something god given though...
     
  16. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

    21,059
    3,499
    Dec 18, 2016
    I'm not the one who keeps on bringing up comparisons to Brown. I don't think it is a good comparison at all.

    I believe Tomlin compared Johnson to Emmanuel Sanders. I think that is a better fit. Santonio Holmes works, too. I'd be happy if he turned out that level of player.
     
  17. turtle

    turtle

    8,542
    1,375
    Jan 14, 2015
    I don't think you can change JC's running style, its just too ingrained like previously mentioned.

    Loose hips (for a multitude of positions) cannot be coached either imo. It's just a natural thing for someone to have or not. I believe you can improve what you have but it only goes so far.

    I've always been a firm believer in player's being "a natural hands catcher". I've only seen players marginally improve in the nfl from when they had suspect hands in college. Most stay about the same. I believe footwork can be improved, but its harder for a QB than other positions for obvious reasons.

    I think most things mental can be coached and improved. Helping one's psyche can be more difficult if they get in a funk though. I always thought hypnosis would help and I wonder if many players try it.
     
  18. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

    3,688
    546
    Oct 23, 2015
    I wonder if psyche may be what happened to Bos? Did someone try to modify his mechanics in 2018?
     
  19. Brice

    Brice Well-Known Member

    5,306
    1,540
    Jul 18, 2018
    Bell was able to completely change his running style and body type in the NFL.

    Hoping Snell and Conner, both can make adjustments to the Pros.

    Now, how do you go about changing the way your Offensive Coordinator coaches?
     
  20. Disco1981

    Disco1981 Well-Known Member

    5,508
    1,764
    Mar 20, 2017
    I still say he was hurt more than he let on.....
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. JAD

    JAD Well-Known Member

    3,193
    330
    Jan 2, 2012
    We will know real quick when pre season starts, if he continues to play flat footed and not move in the pocket he is done because he is not ever going to fix it during the season. He and the coaches should be aware now because it has been said so often about his moving in the pocket, it's up to him and coaches to fix it in the off season. I will be pleasantly surprised if they fix it, but have my doubts.
     
  22. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

    3,688
    546
    Oct 23, 2015
    I agree and I also don't hold out much hope. A blind person could see that, in college, he threw mostly go routes and most of them from his back foot.....failing to step up. How he could still be doing this after two full years of practice and a number of actual starts tells me that one of two things explains this:
    1. Either our scouts didn't see it, or they did, and our coaches chose not to work on it.
    2. Scouts saw it, coaches have been working with it, but MR refuses to adapt.
    If this type of thing can't be "taught" to a player at the NFL level, why do why have all these coaches? To make sure everyone gets on the bus?
     
  23. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

    2,766
    576
    Oct 8, 2017
    He tinkered with his weight, but he didn't change his body type or "completely change" his running style. He was a "patient" runner in college if you go back and watch him. What do you think he "completely changed" about his running style?
     
  24. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

    2,766
    576
    Oct 8, 2017
    I just don't understand how or why it wasn't addressed in college. I guess that as long as the line held up and he and James Washington were breaking records, his coaches weren't concerned with mechanics.
     
  25. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    13,841
    1,898
    Oct 18, 2011
    I don’t understand where this narrative of MR “ always “:throwing off his back foot comes from. Just a simple search of his highlights from college disprove the narrative. He’s had his nice moments delivering the football in the pro’s as well. When he has room to step into his throws he does. Unfortunately last year the pocket was collapsing and the pressure was coming mostly straight up the middle where he couldn’t step up. With a clean pocket he makes the throws. He also has shown more mobility and pocket presence that he gets credit for. The play he suffered the concussion on he was moving in the pocket to create something out of nothing. Unfortunately things fell apart after that but he did seem to bounce back against the Jets only to get hurt again.

    Not having a dedicated QB coach hurt him more than some may recognize. He had a season from hell. Let’s see how he responds before throwing him under the bus from our back foot...:smiley1:

     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page

Welcome to the ultimate resource for Steelers fans. Sign Up Here!