Vick to the burgh?

I'm saying. Let it go he's done the required jail time and is still doing community service for his transgressions, which did not include being personally convicted on a killing charge. He's already contributed to saving more animals than his financing helped injure or kill during his involvement in that practice.

What do you expect him to do now? Flail himself with a cat-o-nine tails daily until he's accepted PETA as his Lord and Savior?

 

Im guessing if he wasnt caught he would still be at the dog fights every Friday night.

Funny how getting caught changes your future actions.

Vick is pond scum...Always was always will be!! The Rooneys knew it!!!

 

I certainly don't condone what Vick has done, but if you feel this way you are absolutely no better than he his, hypocrite.

Go back to analyzing game tape.

 

I can't tell if that was sarcasm [/quote:2aisml1y]

No sarcasm intended, TE. What Vick did was repulsive to most of us, I think, but to talk about snapping another human being's neck, drowning them in Gatorade until they "stop twitching" and putting them through other forms of torture is over the line. When you say these things you put yourself on the same level as Vick and in some ways lower since you're talking about another human being here. What Vick did was heinous, but don't you feel there should be opportunity for redemption? He's expressed remorse and has paid a steep penalty for his crimes. When someone discusses in great, perverted detail, ways in which to torture and kill a fellow human being, not a dog, that's well beyond the pail and has no business on this MB.

 

Yeah Snack, you hypocrite - writing something in a forum post is, after all, pretty much exactly the same thing as running an illegal dog fighting ring.

I think - going back to Lizard's point - that the problem I, as well as others, have, is that it's like Vick was transformed into a hero almost as soon as he was out of prison. He had his own tv show. He had his star position in the NFL. I have nothing against rehabilitation, forgiveness, etc. at all, but Vick did not have to go back into the NFL and earn a squillion dollars in order for any of that to happen.

 

I can't tell if that was sarcasm [/quote:15ifkaxb]

No sarcasm intended, TE. What Vick did was repulsive to most of us, I think, but to talk about snapping another human being's neck, drowning them in Gatorade until they "stop twitching" and putting them through other forms of torture is over the line. When you say these things you put yourself on the same level as Vick and in some ways lower since you're talking about another human being here. What Vick did was heinous, but don't you feel there should be opportunity for redemption? He's expressed remorse and has paid a steep penalty for his crimes. When someone discusses in great, perverted detail, ways in which to torture and kill a fellow human being, not a dog, that's well beyond the pail and has no business on this MB.[/quote:15ifkaxb]

Do you believe in the death penalty? Just curious if say a man raped and killed a child if you's still feel he deserves a chance at redemption.

As for the dog thing, I work with dogs, I've volunteered at shelters and seen abused dogs. I've even seen pictures (thank God not in person) of dogs that had their muzzles taped shut with an explosive stuck inside, some of the most nightmarish pictures I will never get out of my head. I can say that without the slightest bit of message board bravado that if I came across someone doing that, I'd kill them. The things that Vick put those dogs through, not just the ones who were subjected to fighting but the dogs that were used as practice (that have absolutely no chance against a Pit) is unforgivable in my eyes. His prison sentence was far too light but under the laws about the most they could do (that's a different argument all together) and yes, he's doing good now but only because he got caught. Otherwise he'd still be condemning hundreds of dogs to a torturous life and death. If the things that Snack said actually happened to Vick, I wouldn't feel bad for him at all.[/quote:15ifkaxb]

I absolutely believe in the death penalty, but not for participating in an illegal dog fighting operation, as you and Snack seem to. Vick has paid his debt to society for the crimes he committed. Sorry that's not enough for some people.

 

what Vick did was terrible. anyone that can torture and abuse animals has issue. if you are capable of drowning, suffocating, hanging or any other way of torturing and killing an animal, than that person probably shouldnt be allowed to be in the general public.

should that person get the death penalty? well that might be a bit much, but they should be removed from the general public. if you are capable of that, than you are capable of many other things that are probably questionable also.

if you had a neighbor that was part of a dog fighting ring and that neighbor had kids,would you be ok with letting your kids go over to his house? even if that neighbors family had no idea of it, but you did?

lets face it. the people that attend dog fights or cock fights or any other event that involves animals fighting, are not very high on the list of people that society needs. most are gang bangers and low lifes. we can probably do without any of those people.

im not one that wishes bad things on others, but when that person is a bad person than i dont think they should have the same opprotunities as people who try to live their life the right way. i dont think Vick should have ever been allowed back in the NFL. playing in the NFL is a priveledge and he should have lost that priveledge once he was found guilty.

 

I think that's exactly what needed to happen. Lets face it there was no National media attention on the underground dog fighting scene until a big name was caught involved in it. They needed to show that you can turn it around and start doing good. That crap was going on before he was born and is still going on. In some places local politicians and law enforcement are in on it. His situation put a big spotlight on the whole interstate practice and the money and enforcement effort is better for his activism after the fact.


But, we've strayed off-topic. The post was about Vick to Pittsburgh and it's no big secret that they looked at him and decided not to bring him in. Not news old hat stuff.

 

The problem with that philosophy is if you let people out of jail you need to give them an opportunity to right themselves, and become a productive member of society. If as a society we aren't going to give them opportunity, then we may as well leave them in jail, because they have no chance. I'm not a bleeding heart Liberal, believe me, I'm the complete opposite, but if you let criminals out of jail and then don't let them live at least a somewhat normal life, they will just return to crime, and there will be more victims. Giving them the same opportunities as you and I have gives them a chance at righting themselves.

 

Some interesting points raised, and worth thinking about - but, yes, I agree that we've strayed off-topic from Steeler-related stuff.

 

Just seen a gal with a Vick jersey at the hotel. What a loser!!!!!!!!

 

I wrote a pretty long response to this detailing my feelings, and talking about why the required jail time is unjust, and how everything Vick's done to "better" himself has coincidentally had some pretty remarkable bonuses, including one worth $100 million. But I don't have the mojo to deliver it. In short, much like my feelings on the NFL's fining process, I feel that intent is an issue that should be -- but isn't -- looked at. I'm not a "boys will be boys" or "everyone makes mistakes, he paid his debt, so let it go" kind of guy. I understand everyone makes mistakes. Michael Vick has probably made mistakes himself. What we're talking about here wasn't one of them. It was entirely on purpose.

I find it easier to forgive someone who made something that I could really consider a mistake, or someone who got mixed up in the wrong crowd, or someone who did something stupid in a moment of passion. I'm not saying that what he did is better or worse than killing a human, but I will say that I would have a much easier time forgiving someone in Dante Stallworth's shoes than Michael Vick's shoes. And there are other circumstances where the result is arguably worse, but the act was arguably not as bad. What Dante did was horrible, but half this board has admitted they do the same thing and simply didn't have Dante's bad luck. Vick did what he did because he enjoyed it. It made him happy. And he didn't fall in with the wrong crowd; he couldn't wait to do it. And he was a grown man at the time. I believe that by looking at his intent, his actions, what he did upon being caught (lie about it, blame the people around him, only blame himself for being too trusting and generous and allowing himself to be betrayed by people that would do such awful things... what a saint), and what he got out of his "change", it's not hard to see why I'm not jumping on the forgiveness bandwagon. Either I'm way off with my skepticism, or Tony Dungy is a hell of a prison counselor. That guy should just spend every day in prisons, and then there'd be no more crime or hate in the world.

While I'm not keeping this short like I said I would, I'll add... he's donated enough money to save more dogs than he tortured/killed? Is that how it works? I'm gonna make what you'll consider an outrageous comparison now, but try and stick with me if you can: why didn't we just capture Osama bin Laden instead of killing him? He could get his hands on money somehow. We could force/ask/peer pressure him to pay enough money until he saves 4,000+ Americans that might have otherwise died. That could be by way of donating to people who need money for surgery, helping the homeless, cancer research, whatever. That's not an equal comparison, but do you see the parallel? Neither scenario makes any sense. Is bin Laden now somehow less bad? Is he easier to forgive? Was he going to do those nice things and save those lives if we hadn't forced him? Can you pay restitution when you're talking about life? If Vick hadn't been caught, he'd still be doing what he was doing a few years ago. His "seeing the light" happened to coincide with a fresh $100 million and a mulligan on his NFL career. I'm supposed to believe he's changed? Even if he has, that's supposed to excuse what he did? Now go back to intent... what he did, why he did it, how much he liked it... that can never be forgiven. Citing a legal system that gives dogs about as much credit as DVD players and could give you or me more jail time for doing drugs in our own bedrooms is pretty weak, in my opinion. Hmm, that turned out to be not that short after all. My bad.

On the contrary. I'm worse! After all, Vick is a new man who has paid a steep price (18 months! And a loss of millions of... well, ever mind). He is now saving dogs left and right, speaking out to our rookie classes about how to be a good man. If not for the fumbling, he'd be a perfect role model! And little old me -- sure, I may have never killed any dogs per se, but the fact that I would like to see torture come to a guilty man who tortured innocent animals does in fact put me on the same level as a man who did torture innocent animals. For fun. Is the lesson that human life is more valuable than dog/animal life no matter what? I'd take a dog over a lot of people. I'd take a random bumble bee over a lot of people. Some people lower themselves below what we like to call "humanity." I'm not in any "bros before hos" type club with other humans. You do the stuff Vick did, to hell with you. You are now less than dogs. What's so hard to understand about that?

For the record, I'm not saying I think torture should be legal. I'm aware of how that would really mess up the world. We can't just go around torturing people, even convicted torture artists and serial killers. But that's for policy reasons. It would worsen us as a country. But what's fair would be for Michael to go through the things I described before. And I happen to be a big fan of fair. Ideally, he would be imprisoned, and made to suffer (but kept alive) by way of torture through drowning, hanging, electric shock, etc. Oh, and being tied down while something wild has a go at him (wolves? bears?). Although it might be hard to keep him alive for that. Maybe they'll let volunteers line up and take turns pushing him down the stairs. He would go through this torture once in awhile, maybe once a week, while he's in prison. His prison sentence would be loooong, and he wouldn't get any kind of regular food or water or communication. Maybe he gets slapped around now and then, just to piss him off. There's a good chance that by the time he's released, as an old man, that he would be really messed up and unfit to re-join society. Since human euthanasia probably still won't be an option, he can just stay in prison. That's fine with me. Now, if any of that sounds worse than what he actually did to the dogs (after all, not all of those things happened to each dog -- I sort of crammed them all together), that's because it probably is. If not worse, then definitely longer. I mean, none of his dogs lived long enough to suffer that much, right? But, um, he started it. So yeah, it's not just about making things even. It's about making them fair. I don't think that's the way this country should operate, and I know for sure it's not going to happen, and I'm not taking any steps to make it happen, but that's what I think would be fair. If I'm as bad as Michael Vick, so is a lot of the country. Not just a sliver or a speck, like the amount of dogfighters, but a big meaty portion. It doesn't show on the NFL Network, but it's out there. And I had no idea you thought this country was filled with people like him.

I'm pretty tired now. Forgive me if I don't respond to your response, if there is one.

 

Vick is from the same area of Virginia as Tomlin is so I guess he was just trying to help him. Still a head scratcher though.

 

Actually I think that (all his previous transgressions and the fact that we had - and still have - a franchise QB aside), Pittsburgh would have been a good place for Vick to start his "road to redemption", both professionally (work hard as a backup, gadget player) and personally (with the kind of role models on the team, both players and owners/fo).

But all the publicity of Vick (+ the unproven allegations against Ben at that time) would have torn Steeler Nation apart and put the Steelers in even more bad headlines.

 

Ah NO way would his "road to redemption" ever travel through Da Burgh!! We have class!! Vick has none!!!!

 

I remember it too. My wife and my best friend, both Steeler fans said they would never pull for the Steelers again if they signed him. While I didnt want it, I wouldnt have been upset about it.

 

Lok Snack I see where you're coming from, but there has to be a point of letting it go. Let's face it the analogies you made could be applied to all the "good" scientific advancements that came from the scientists working for Hitler. Think about that, most of them didn't get sent to the firing squad, they were spirited away and thier minds picked for what they learned. There has to be a point where you move on. As much as we bash other people and governments for thier transgressions, the U.S.A. most definitely comitted some terrible sins as well.

You have the Syphilis experiments and as far as I know no one has been punished for that outrage. The public apology is satisfactory there though.