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This was going to be another bashing Butler thread, but . . .

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Steel Acorn, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    Oh I agree Butler has done plenty to get himself fired. The point I was trying to get at was exactly what you said. The buck is supposed to stop with the HC and contrary to a few opinions a HC worth his salt should be involved with gameplanning and should be able to grab his coordinators by the neck and tell them to shape up or ship out. I don't have the exact numbers but I can't imagine there being many if any HCs who aren't a part of gameplanning. There are plenty of others that are actually calling plays as well or their coordinators are at least in lock step with what the HC wants. I don't know why that is so hard to fathom for some.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    HC>DC. There is a pecking order. The HC is in charge of his coordinators,No?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

    Apr 21, 2016

    Not if the Head Coach cedes all playcalling duties to them.

    Again, why did Tomlin take over playcalling duties last season? Who's fault is that for happening in the first place?
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    If he took over playcalling then he didn't cede all playcalling duties to Butler. So by your reasoning again
    HC>DC. It was Butlers fault but Tomlin stepped in like you said. Where was the improvement? The HEAD coach is ultimately responsible for his team including all players and coaches. It may have been Butlers fault because he is the DC. Then who's fault is it that it continues to happen and has been happening for years? If Tomlin shares no blame or responsibility because the Butler did it and doesn't have the power to change things. Then he really is just a cheerleader....
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

    Apr 21, 2016

    Yep. He sure did take over. However, it was not simply because he is the Head Coach.

    Prior to that, there was no need. Why? Tomlin gave full control of the defense to Butler. Butler was doing well up until January 22nd of 2017. Since then, he has gotten either better or worse depending on the context. The sacks have gone up but some of the initial issues still remain.

    As already reported last season, again, Tomlin took over playcalling duites due in part to Butler's ineptitude. Butler did not relinquish that control to Tomlin because Tomlin stepped in. He relinquished that control due to his OWN failures; Tomlin stepping in as a direct result of that.

    In short? Tomlin has his fair share of warts this season for certain. From consecutive lost challenges to time management, he is by no means infallible to criticism. However, to placate all blame on him for an aspect of the game he is not coaching is silly. That level of blame should be put on whomever is in charge of that aspect; the defense being this case.
  6. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    You keep missing the part where the HC is ultimately responsible for his teams failures. Butler and his D don't exist in a bubble. Do you think that Tomlin walks into stadiums unaware of what the game plan is gonna be on both sides of the ball? I know the answer is no. So during the week when they are devising and reviewing the gameplan Tomlin isn't a part of that? I know the answer is yes he is. So with that being said if Tomlin doesn't agree with the strategy he just lets it go because Butler is the DC. I know the answer is no. Therefore he has a hand in gameplanning just like every other coach in the NFL. Some even go as far as actually calling the plays. If ours is the lone coach in the league that has no influence on a gameplan each week we are truly in a sadder state then I could of ever imagined.

    The gameplan on both side of the ball is influenced by the HC .the coordinators and some of the position coaches as well I'm sure. Have you ever seen Belichick go up to one of his coordinators and want to choke th life out of them. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't get so upset if he didn't know the gameplan and have a major role in devising it. You think he's the only one to put his stamp on the game plans on both O and D? I know the answer is no.....
  7. Lambert

    Lambert Well-Known Member

    Jun 5, 2015
    Someone remind me what Tomlin's supposed area of expertise was when we hired him. Right, so when the DC is doing his best to lose games the HC should step in and take over. Tomlin isn't capable. In his case HC is just the Head Cheerleader, which beyond poor schemes, has led to the inmates running the asylum. It could not be more clear. If you think this guy is a good coach you're deluded. Green Bay finally woke up to the source of their problems the last few years. The Steelers need to take the same action.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Clive From PIT

    Clive From PIT

    Dec 14, 2015
    Honest question, no agenda here:

    It struck me that during broadcasts, I see Tomlin talking into his headset far less often than other head coaches. Is that impression correct? If so, why is that?
  9. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    Maybe he's just listening to his press conferences on a loop....:shrug:
    • Hilarious Hilarious x 1
  10. CK 13

    CK 13 Well-Known Member

    Nov 5, 2011
    Could be. Maybe he needs to insert some more ummm's, popcorn, unleash hell, combat catches, broad brush whatever. And when your defense is getting beaten like a rented mule step in and help make adjustments. And when it's obvious that your offense has no balance maybe question why. That is his job. It starts and ends with him!
  11. Thigpen82


    Oct 17, 2011
    Given the criticisms Tomlin gets for inaction, I watched other HCs a fair bit last season. My impression was that he wasn’t an anomaly, though others talked far more.

    It seemed to me that the timing of the broadcast image was key on this - like, in some cases it seemed likely the HC was listening to upstairs, or is watching the replay, and the camera cuts away before a response.

    I suppose other HCs have their coordinators upstairs as well, so would use the headset more.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Remahlehs

    Remahlehs Active Member

    Mar 20, 2018
    I'm willing to blame the Bostic coverage of Allen on Tomlin's 'next man up' mentality. We've heard Tomlin claim the Steelers haven't made any halftime adjustments recently, and that was confirmed when the defense kept covering Allen with a linebacker. The Steelers have a gameplan and they stick to it. They make the mold and cram players into it. Covering Allen with Bostic is idiotic.

    However, what if it was someone more athletic? Someone with speed to keep up? Someone like Shazier. I believe that when Butler got the job, the defense was crafted around having an athletic linebacker who can make big plays. When Shazier was lost to injury, the Steelers didn't change their gameplan. They expect to be able to plug the backup in and continue to run their scheme. Unfortunately, we don't have a Shazier-like backer on the team, and it shows. If Butler can't realize his player's limitations and adjust accordingly, then he needs to be out of a job.
  13. Steel Acorn

    Steel Acorn Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    I think this is correct. I think Butler is running a particular scheme regardless of the skill set of his players. He truly must think that his LBs can cover the other team's best receiver. A great scheme if you have the personnel. An idiotic scheme if you don't. There has been lots of video analysis on the web of how bad the defensive scheming has been. Nice for a change to not shame the players for lack of talent or effort. For the most part, I think they are doing the best they can, but are in awful positions to succeed. And, of course, sometimes you just lose.
  14. nor

    nor Well-Known Member

    Oct 26, 2016
    As many forum members have posted before, opponents are clearly taking advantage of the poor sideline to sideline speed of the Steelers' MLBers. Here are three pictures that show Carolina running that Option play that springs McCaffrey loose for a long run. Did it many times in the first half. I read that Butler adjusted at halftime by bringing Edmunds down into the box. What's the fix? I suggest getting faster MLBers or bringing Edmunds down earlier in the game than after halftime.

    IMG_4189.JPG IMG_4191.JPG IMG_4193.JPG
  15. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2012
    Green bay fired the wrong guy, 9 playoff appearances 1 superbowl win in 12 years, he wasnt the problem, the GM gutted the talent on his team and of course prima donna rodgers whinning didnt help, if we had a H/C opening right now I would have McCarthy at the top of my list, he is also a home grown Pittsburgh guy thats a plus....

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2011
    The Steelers did well in the first half on defense. I think it was a mentality of "we need to continue to do what we did well". Allen had his way with the DB's that covered him too so....

    The Chargers and Rivers did a good job in the 2nd half executing and creating match ups that they wanted. One way the chargers did that was with spread offense.

    The Steelers don't play a lot or man to man coverage for obvious reasons. One huge reason the Steelers play a lot of zone is because they like to bring pressure from different players and areas of the field to keep offenses guessing. The Steelers also don't have LB's that are good in space and man to man coverage.

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