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The Official Re-sign Lawrence Timmons Thread Post Draft

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by mcam, May 3, 2018.

  1. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    That's fine you have your opinion but he really hasn't been given much of a chance. Yeah he stepped in for Ryan when he got hurt but that was a lot to ask of a 2nd year player to step in and call the defense. I have a lot more confidence in Dirty Red than LT but I feel Tyler has upsaide and LT is on the down side. jmo.
     
  2. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Ok so let me understand this you are comparing Spence to TM? Spence had a lot of talent but his career got cut short due to all his injuries. His last year here he was healthy and played pretty well then when he left he got hurt again and pretty much ended his career until we came to get him off the couch.

    Now you can say what you want about 40 times I think we talked about this in the Washington thread. James ran a 4.54 but yet you watch the game film and he fly's by all the DB's. Same thing with TM, he has a slow 40 but put on his college tape and he reads and reacts very well which is why he was in position to make so many tackles. This game isn't always about stats some guys use their brains to over come they physical defaults and TM is one, we just need to see if he can do it at the next level. I think him being such a good special team players says a lot cause if he was as slow as you are thinking than how is he making all these "pro bowl" plays?

    I am not putting my faith in TM as I am not saying he is a starter but I would rather have him as a back up than LT who is on the wrong side of his career. Also with us wanting to run more dime that means less LB's.
     
  3. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    Speed is mentioned as this seems to be the primary reason people are saying don't re-sign Lawrence Timmons. My point is he isn't as slow as people are making out, and that if the two were in a race I highly doubt Matakevich is going to be winning it.

    In other words, you wouldn't want him on Travis Kelce going deep either. I like Matekevich, but the guy is yet to show he can do more than play special teams.
     
  4. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't want any of our LBers going deep covering a TE. Shazier could but he was more safety like. I'll bet he doesnt weigh much more than Edmund's. 230 is really pushing it for shazier. I don't think he's that big. You guys also wanted Evans and he was around the 4.73 range, matakevich ran a 4.76 so not a difference there at all. Perception and actuality can be quite different in many cases. I'll wait and pass judgement on dirty red after I see him this year healthy. Vince in my mind is the guy that should be backing up or be the guy that could be upgraded but with who is the question. This draft didn't have much speed past the first few guys. It's going to be an on going search I think. :cool:
     
  5. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the bold, that's the point. People are ripping into Timmons for a being a liability in coverage, but the reality is on these plays that they're talking about many times are mismatches.

    So in short, that is more of a coaching issue than a player issue IMO.
     
  6. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Lawrence "coffin dodger" Timmons would be an upgrade to our current Linebacker corps.
     
  7. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure Watt could cover a TE deep if asked to do so, if he did it would be best to have safety help over the top.
     
  8. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Not many LB's are going to cover a TE like Kelce deep but that is why we went safety heavy to run more dime. You are right we haven't seen much of what TM can do and that is not his fault but we have seen what LT can do and he can't cover anymore.

    I liked LT when he was here but his skills no longer fit what this defense is trying to do. He is on the down side of his career and it was a nice career. Again we haven't seen what TM is capable of but what we do know is if we sign LT we may never know.
     
  9. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    I think I need to address this tomorrow via a "threadicle".


    Plenty of information as to what and how Pittsburgh wants to attack opposing offenses defensively but, as stated, I will be saving that for tomorrow.
     
  10. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    We anxiously await.
     
    • Hilarious Hilarious x 1
  11. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    That article says well play two safeties in the dime with four CB's ?
    Kinda makes my point about this make believe defense that's being touted?
     
  12. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I've mentioned a couple times now that the idea is to use him against more run formations in the base 3-4 and goaline.. so not the nickle, dime 3-3-5 packages or whatever.


    When we first drafted Timmons he WAS our dime linebacker.. not anymore, and I'm not trying to make the case to attempt to make him one again. I like what the Steelers are doing with adding more safeties in the mix to help with mismatches.

    People act like Timmons would be completely lost though a team would happen to pass. The guy isn't as fast as he once was, but that's a bit of an exaggeration. Timmons is one of the best pure tacklers in the game and he has an entire decade on his resume to prove it.

    He'd be perfect to help AGAINST THE RUN against physical teams just like the Jaguars.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Right but it was before the draft and before we draft 2 safety's. You point was about a make believe defense, it is obvious they want to do with more CB's and/or S's either way that means less LB's and that's my point. It's not make believe it is what the Steelers have been talking about and evidence by how we drafted.
     
  14. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I agree LT was a great tackler but just how much are we gonna use him. First off we are talking about a back up, he is not coming here to start. Also from what I am reading it sounds like we are going to see a major change in our D. We will be seeing more of this hybrid which is why I think Edmunds was drafted. Also LT was horrid his last season here in pass coverage and if I was an opposing QB and saw LT out there I would audible our of any run play into a pass play and go after LT.

    If the Steelers were to being in a vet I would much rather have Hodges who looks like more of a fit. Also not sure what has happened but there is something going on between Tomlin and Timmons so I think we have enough drama here no need for anymore. Total pass of LT for both on and off the field stuff, jmo
     
  15. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    What defense is used is based upon the personnel you are playing against.

    For example, the Patriots will spread you out and put Gronk in as a slot creating a mismatch. Having the hybrid-type of defensive schemes works for that. I think the Patriots are a big reason why they are looking to implement it.


    Then you have the Jaguars, who RAN RIGHT AT US being physical pretty much destroying our rush defense. They'd line up with a fullback and 1 or 2 tight ends. THESE are the scenarios I'm talking about utilizing Timmons.

    You need to be able to match up the physicality. The idea that a 217 lb safety is going to come in and play linebacker in these scenarios is not realistic.
     
  16. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    They want to have the personnel to match up with a pass-happy spread league that utilizes mismatches. For example offenses like Patriots have and historically have exploited us.

    You don't play a nickle defense against a two tight and fullback set though. You're asking to get your ass handed to you worse than the Jaguars handed the Steelers theirs on a platter.
     
  17. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Mcam I get what your saying and believe me I understand I just didn't start watching football today but what I am saying is based off all that I am reading about what direction the Steelers are moving in. I have read they want to play more dime and more 3 safety sets well that means less LB's. I am not sitting here saying what I want only what I am reading.

    Also the 3-4 is long dead, we don't run that very much anymore, yes that is our base but we don't stay in it. This hybrid(right or wrong) style is what we are running more and more. Speaking of which does anyone have a link that shows how many snaps we played in what formation? I think that will show us more on what I am talking about. I also feel this is why we didn't go after a big NT but instead a DT later on.

    Drafting a guy like Edmunds is a prime example of playing a dime but yet still being strong vs the run. I am not making this stuff up this is what I have read and many others here have read the same thing. This is why a guy like LT makes no sense imo.
     
  18. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    If you go back and review the Jaguars game, you'll see our traditional 3-4 Buck and Mack ILB. You'll also see us get outplayed physically at both the defensive line (which is impressive for the Jaguars) and inside LB. Both LBs took poor angles, did bad reads, were out played physically at the point of attack etc.. Williams even admitted it after the game.

    I'm all for this new hybrid type of defense, but you don't line up in the Dime against a fullback and 1 or 2 tight ends unless you want your 250 yard + rush defense to become 400+, even with running bigger safeties that can run.

    For evidence of how a 250lb guy lines up against a 215lb guy, review some old Bettis highlights.
     
  19. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    Did we ever get the “threadicle”? With my limited vocabulary I’m trying to figure what that is. I Goggled it and the closest thing I could find was a fudgsickle. So, I did have one of those.
     
  20. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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  21. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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  22. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are both right to a certain extent. I think it comes down to scheme and technique. The problem with the Jags game wasn't so much undersized guys matching up against a power run formation but rather instead of knowing the scheme and how they fit into it. Stopping Fournette going North to South and forcing him East and West should be the goal but you had too many guys not holding the line and forcing him towards the sideline and negating his power. They could have had Hampton in there and had Greene and Lloyd but with Heyward and Tuitt not holding the line and Williams shooting upfield in the first gap he sees that is going to open up lanes to have Fournette power through.

    Now if they try using three safeties with them acting like hybrid players up in run support it can work against a jumbo run look as long as they know their scheme and utilize a tackling technique that gets a big back to the ground or the side lien instead of laying the wood on a big hit. the front seven have to hold the line and force the play east to west with these safteies staying clear of the block and flowing to the ball carrier and gang tackling him to the ground.
     
  23. Disco1981

    Disco1981 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly....The game is not played in shorts and compression shirts......AB I believe ran a high 4.5 or 4.6 coming out of college, of course his maniac work ethic has reduced that...He has what we call " game speed"...I don't see him getting caught from behind from supposedly " faster " players

    Same as Jerry Rice" the greatest "...the knock on him coming out of college was that he was to slow...Did you ever see him get caught from behind!
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  24. mcam

    mcam Well-Known Member

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    AT 2:05, you see right side strong tight end with a full back. We had the traditional 3-4 setup with the OLBs on the line and strong safety in the box. You'll see Sean Davis get blocked by the fullback getting taken out of the play (an example of the results of a big player blocking a little), Bud Dupree getting double teamed by the RT and TE at first to get eventually get pile drived into the ground.

    You'll see the two inside linebackers have poor reads along with taking bad angles that did not have the speed to get to the corner.

    So you'd think here's where you put in your safeties at ILB. The only problem is, instead of running to the corner, where would you think the Jags would run? They'd be absolutely foolish not to run right up the gut.

    You don't line up in the nickle defense against a two tight end front with a full back and power back unless you want to get run over.




    AT 3:34

    You'll see a double TE set with no full back. The steelers are running a traditional 3-4.

    You'll see LT Walton #96 get man handled by the center driven back. You'll see Spence get easily blocked.

    Lawrence Timmons plays more physical at the point of attack.


    Next play at 3:50

    Here's where we should see our sub package nickle or 3-3-5 whatever defenses. They didn't even have Fournette in. It was Yelden. So you match speed with speed. I think they didn't have the personnel in the secondary to do it so they didn't. We can see how it was a lose. JT Watt made a misstep with an initial bad read and couldn't recover with the speed of Yelden. Not Watt's strength.


    Here are a few examples.

    I like the idea of getting versatile players for sub-packages, but the 3-4 is still very much alive in the Steelers defense and to think that lining up Safeties at inside linebackers on a regular basis against physical teams will get you beat every time.
     
  25. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    I really don't think their intentions are to use the safeties as true LBers in the base 3-4. Rotating them in those situation will help to keep them fresh though and won't put a lot of unnecessary pounding on any one safety in games against power teams. We still have LBers. If anyone remembers just a couple of years ago we used to put harrison and even moats on the interior to help confuse offenses. I could see more of that against teams like the power teams. We don't have to use a safety as a conventional ILB if that's what you guys are hinting at. I don't believe that is what we were ever trying to do, but some keep giving that impression. Many ways to counter this type of offense. We just didn't have the pieces in place last year to do it at that point in the season.:cool:
     

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