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The Best Offenses

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by TarheelFlyer, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. TarheelFlyer

    TarheelFlyer Well-Known Member

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    Slow week between the holidays, so I thought I would look into the best offenses and see how they use their RBs in the passing game. I looked at NO, GB, and NE as they are the best 3 offenses in the NFL.

    NO
    Runs=396
    Pass Comp.=441
    Comp. to RB=128

    GB
    Runs=371
    Pass Comp.=345
    Comp. to RB=47

    NE
    Runs=409
    Pass Comp.=378
    Comp. to RB=24

    Pitt
    Runs=398
    Pass Comp.=318
    Comp. to RB=42

    So why do we struggle? Is it our lack of an Oline? Is the the scheme? What? Those 3 above all average over 30 pts. a game and are the top 3 scoring offenses in the NFL. We average just over 20 and are 20th in offensive scoring. We are 11th in rushing yards/gm. They are all top 5. We are 9th in Passing yards/gm. They are top 3. What is the difference? Someone please tell me, cause at the moment, I'm confused. Each of the 3 above us runs a different scheme with different personnel playing the key roles. For GB, it is the receiving core. For NE, it is the Tight Ends. For NO, it is running through passing. (just 1 last note, Baltimore's RBs had 1/3rd of all their receptions)
     
  2. BLACKnGOLDsince72

    BLACKnGOLDsince72 Well-Known Member

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    There isn't 1 simple answer. The offensive line plays a big part in it though. According to NFL.COM stats our O/L is ranked 23rd in the league versus the Saints and Pats who are ranked 4th and 8th respectively. Then you have the issue of turnovers to where we've fumbled the ball over to the other side 11 times this year versus the Saints, Pack and Pats who only fumbled it away to the other team 5 times. Ben's thrown 14 interceptions versus Rodgers 6 although Brees and Brady weren't far off of Ben's number with 13 and 11 picks respectively. Then you have poor redzone efficiency where we've failed to score TDs versus FGs and performance of the line, play calling and turnovers have all contributed here and that's why I stand by my position that simply firing BA won't be the cure all on offense.
     
  3. rukus4ever

    rukus4ever Well-Known Member

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    O-Line stifles rushing yardage production as they fail to adequately run block.

    Ben's INTs (14 on the season) and offensive fumbles stifle offensive drives. Note, there have been key INTs and fumbles in the red zone. That's really bad when you consider red zone visits are key because many other drives will end in punts. So, Steelers are leaving red zone w/out even a field goal. Getting pushed back out of the red zone factors into that equation, as well. And that is often an O-Line issue as RBs are tackled in backfield because of defensive penetration or Ben gets sacked.

    Compare Ben's INTs to Brees, Rodgers and Brady. Then look at team turnovers and turnover ratio.

    I suspect these data will answer your questions.

    Steelers are not protecting the ball well, this year.
     
  4. TarheelFlyer

    TarheelFlyer Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2011
    I don't expect the firing of BA to be a "cure all", but I do think it would help. He frustrates me beyond belief. While I believe our Oline is bad, the constant shuffling cannot help. Sunday will be our 8th different STARTING Oline this year....8th! That doesn't include changes which happen during the game for injuries like this past Sunday. It will be no option but to address this offseason for sure. Too many guys on that line will either be free agents at the end of the year, or coming off of some injury. Which Olineman do I feel confident will be starting next year of the 9 we currently have on the roster? 2...Pouncey and Gilbert. Anyone else, they could be starting, a backup, or at home.
     
  5. rukus4ever

    rukus4ever Well-Known Member

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    BA can't control injuries on the O-Line. But he and the general manager need to get on the same page. As others have said... these guys can't run the zone blocking scheme, collectively. BA and the GM need to discuss who needs to be drafted/acquired to fit into the new scheme, or BA needs to suck it up and use a scheme that suits the talent we have on O-Line.
     
  6. Iowasteeljim

    Iowasteeljim

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    I thought you said the answer wasn't simple. It looks like you summed it up pretty well! Unless of course, you were directing this answer towards the coaches because they watch it in practice, on the field, during games and while reviewing tapes and still don't seem to see the connection. :shrug:
     
  7. GravelGod

    GravelGod Well-Known Member

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    Dec 10, 2011
    The answer to your question is what happens or dosen't happen between the 20 yard line and goal line. Tomlin's offense leaves 4 points on the field by kicking field goals because they are unable to score touchdowns.
     
  8. AFan

    AFan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure the Steelers have been terrible protecting the ball. They are sort of middle-of-the-pack in Giveaways, 13th in the League. But they are tied for last in takeaways. Essentially no defensive scoring, or short-field situations that help scoring. Yeah, they could protect the ball better, but an extra takeaway per game (the difference between being last and being in the top5), would help alot.
     
  9. SteelerFanInKC

    SteelerFanInKC Well-Known Member

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    Nov 14, 2011
    i think that you could question playcalling for sure but NO is sending three offensive lineman to the probowl and NE is sending two, i think and GB maybe one, not sure but basically bottom line is this..................those three tyeams have elite talent on the oline compared to us. period. we have pouncey and that's it, period!!!!! so disgusted with our front office when it comes to how they put together our oline with a $100 million franchise qb!
     
  10. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    How often is Brees, Rodgers, and Brady throwing to someone who is wide open? It happens a lot. Good, efficient offenses EXPOSE the defense. Pass routes are run and designed to create mismatches and/or confusion in the secondary. Quite often, this happens for the Saints, Pats, and Packers. Someone is free, running loose in the secondary.

    How often is Ben throwing to a wide open target? Ben is often throwing to receivers who have defenders draped on them. In fact, if you watch game film on Fridays, the Steelers' receivers mostly run simple slants and curls. Arians' routes are so easy to defend. many of the sacks on Ben are actually "coverage sacks." Even with 5 WRs taking off, nobody is ever open, so Ben has to "extend the play" with his legs.
     
  11. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I think redzone is the primary factor. We seem to be dreadful at it. Anyone care to look that up, it has to be near the bottom of the pack. :frustrated:
     
  12. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    I agree and to add to that,,,,,For the most part D'S know when we are going empty and take out at least 2 or 3 run stoppers and insert pass coverage guys and blitz people.....They simply man up and send more than we can block,,,,the Ravens have done this to us each and every game we still win some ,,,but it's not because of our weak game plan.....

    As I have stated many,many,many times I have no problem with a empty set from time to time as long as it has RB'S in it....This would stop Teams from getting there best packages on the field because we could simply shift back into a running set if they go with coverage and blizers,,,,,if they go with run stoppers then hit the RB'S quickly in the passing game and use the speed WR'S running deep to clear the space......Then mix it up if you get Mendenhall 1 on 1 see if a LB can cover him deep and send the WR quickly underneath.....Miller should be used the same way he should be part of the WR set and can abuse LB'S 1on1 all day and most DB'S as well IMO....He can also shift back inside and block or become a great option for the PA pass....

    We need a set of Redman,Mendenhall,Brown,Wallace, and Miller and flex back and forth give us abilty to run anything from a empty set to a 3 RB look with Miller as the other FB....GB runs this set a lot by the way so it's not just a HS set... We would also have 2 speedsters on the field and would be looking to get them open deep off of PA from flexing into running sets and underneath from the spread look as i stated above.....Now that WR screen actually is more effective because you are throwing it to your RB''S 1 missed tackle and Mendy can get gone or Red could break a tackle and go for 20.....

    All the reason all of this could and would work better is we would have the ability to run or pass on any down from any type set we want to....If the D sends in the blitz pass coverage package pound the ball and make them pay,,,if they send in the run stopping D hit the PA or well designed routes from the spread.....

    All we need is a OC with some Chess playiing ability and the ability to maximize strengths while minimizing weaknesses and this Team can not be beat....

    Is why it's so sad I could give you 20 different game plans each week and all would be better than the one we use.......
     
  13. MikeFanForLife

    MikeFanForLife Well-Known Member

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    I vote for PWP for new OC, Bruce can hold your clipboard or mike cord, if that's ok with you PWP.
     
  14. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    This kind of depends on our runners being able to break through the blitz, which hasn't always been a gimme in the last few years. Likewise we've seen Ben go for quick releases against the blitz and basically throw the ball to Suggs. It would also struggle against Ds where the linebackers are fast enough to fake a blitz and drop into coverage. Ben isn't that great at picking those things up.
     
  15. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    The difference is the play of those team's QB's. Those team's QB's perform better on a more consistent basis.
     
  16. BLACKnGOLDsince72

    BLACKnGOLDsince72 Well-Known Member

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    No I said there wasn't ONE simple answer ;) The line, turnovers and play calling have all contributed in varying degrees in all the games and of course it's always more noticeable in the games we lost.
     
  17. BLACKnGOLDsince72

    BLACKnGOLDsince72 Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes. It's just so simple and obvious and yet nobody in the entire Steeler organization is smart enough to figure it out and clue Bruce in on what he should be doing. You tear me up.
     
  18. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is simple it is called a multitude of sin being covered by winning games. As many on here like to point out who cares what is wrong as long as they are winning. eventually that will catch up to a team and the narrow margin wins of the past will be narrow margin losses and then these things will come to the surface.
     
  19. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    You do have a point ,but that's where Coaching comes in......With correctly drawn up routes if they fake the blitz they are toast ,because they give you a natural window if the play design forces man coverage to that side......You don't try a no look pass at the LOS that was horrible play desgn and play execution and that play should be executed from the playbook.....All we have to do to torch Suggs on those outside the DE blitz maybe not plays is force man coverage and throw right behind it....

    Is why I said a set of Redman Mendenhall,Miller,Brown and Wallace........ This is the chess part stack the 2 speed guys away from Suggs at 1st. I almost Guarentee they shift the coverage forcing Suggs to play a man underneath on the other side....Then all you need is a good route tree inside guy arrow out i that's his guy he is Toast....2nd. RB/TE a 10 yard smash in or out depening on where the SS is on that hash,the outside WR can run a Curl,Seam,Drag 10 yard come back and all these force a triangle and that's called passing tree 101.....Simple enough force the space and make the D choose what they want to have open.....

    That's where game film comes into play knowing when Suggs is likely to drop out and when the Safety is likely to cheat....And from what I have seen on tape is most the time that LB wll come if Suggs drops out....This is perfect as he is to tight to the LOS to catch any of the 3 routes above also 2 of those routes run right near the LB so if he is blitzing all 3 guys could come wide open if they have rolled the coverage to protect against the speed......

    So thats 1 of many approaches and just so you know I have a progressive plan ,thats the ideal set to throw that screen out of get Miller and Redman out in front of Mendenhall and no way does Suggs pick it or even sniff a tackle because you use motion and crack the snot out of him ........Worst case is we get a 15 yard personal foul,,,which is O.K. with me I even Coach it that way,,if you are the cracker no way does he cross the los and get into the path of the ball....Clip him grab him by the face mask,do a flying leg scissors ....I perfer you just get a good legal block ,but Ben will know he can make the throw no matter what.....Thats play design and Coacing and what you practice before you get to the stadium...

    After he sees some of that bring the speed guys over and a RB flex the TE/RB to the other side see if they roll coverage this way,motion Red or Mendy back into the backfield see if he goes back inside...

    I could go on for years ,but I think you get my point......Stop trying to force a predictable system that is high risk when we have the talent to be wildly unpredictable and minimize the risk by attacking perssonel,players, and spots.....As stated run correctly the DC would have to think about how to defend
    every blade of grass on the field on each snap......IMO that's exactly where you want to be as a offensive unit........
     
  20. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    LOL....But BA would not be allowed on the field with me ,,,,I would probably let him erase the Chalk Boards at half time or something..........
     
  21. BLACKnGOLDsince72

    BLACKnGOLDsince72 Well-Known Member

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    Well last year we finished 12 and 4 and unless there's a major melt down this Sunday we should do the same again this year so it looks like it hasn't caught up to us yet. All I'm saying is fixing the problem always seems simple or easy when you're on the outside looking in.
     
  22. edog55

    edog55 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, the three head coaches on No, GB, and NE are all offensive guys. They are smarter then BA. Infect BA couldn't carry their jock straps. They let Ben do what he wants to do, throw the football. Sense Cowher left, and BA became the OC, Ben has been doing exactly what he wants to do, throw the football. Tomlin has no control over that IMO.

    A big factor is, BA changed the philosophy of the Steelers from a running ball control offense to a totally passing offense by first getting rid of the full back in the offense and starting using TE's as blockers. BTW, John Kuhn of the Packers who use to be with the Steelers, made the Pro-Bowl. Also, BA very rearly uses the I formation with a legit full back because his two favorite formations are 5 wide 0 backs, and the one back set.

    And last but not least, everytime the Steelers throw the ball twice as much as they run it, they lose, and that is a plan and simple fact. Brees, Brady, and Rogers can throw the ball 40+ times a game and win.
     
  23. rukus4ever

    rukus4ever Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a very important point. Because I don't think Brees, Brady and/or Rodgers take the field with the mentality of doing what they want to do. I believe they are as good as they are because they have accepted mentoring and coaching throughout their careers, and realize that if they start a game doing what they MUST do, then, most times, they can end it doing what they WANT to do.

    Still, I think we have all determined that it's really a mixture of all the issues brought up. Because Chalk Talk on Steelers.com often shows receivers open so I think BA may not be a genius at OC, but he's efficient enough. I think the problem is two-fold: 1) BA can get predictable, and 2) When BA does get good plays off, Ben doesn't always try to hit the optimal route, based on the defensive scheme of the opposition. This is where BA should coach Ben on the sidelines regarding what is and is not available, on the field. And Ben must heed that advice. Also, BA needs to suck it up and realize the 5-wide empty and 5-wide single-back sets are going to have to take a back seat to formations that are more versatile given the personnel on his team.

    Look, I think Ben is an above-average, tough, gutsy QB with a LOT of heart and a strong arm. This gives him the ability to win more SBs, but he's going to have to tighten up his game to be a consistent champion. That goes for Mendenhall, Wallace, Brown and, moreover, the O-Line. Everyone is going to have to dig in and give their all.

    These guys can do it. They just have to focus.
     

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