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Steelers place original pick tender on Cockrell

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by SanDiegoSteel, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    I never stated that Ross was a bust ...I stated he was a part of a defense that allowed Teams to move the ball at will most of the time ..I also stated that as part of that group they gave up like 64 % in pass completions ...I also stated he had Zero picks ....When Teams are throwing that much your outside CB can not have zero picks ..As I stated even the Rookie read some routes and jumped some for 3 picks ...I don't need to look up all his stats all I need is that 1 3rd. and 18 play,if he is going to allow that much space and can't make a play on that ball the chances of him being able to break on the ball and pick them off are slim to none...His 2016 interception total says exactly that ....

    If we intend to beat NE soft zone will not work as such Ross needs to be replaced on the outside ...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    That unit can't beat NE...If they don't upgrade it the window is already shut IMO..
     
  3. SC Gamecock

    SC Gamecock

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    While teams aren't "supposed" to be doing any dealing before free agency officially begins, we all know that behind the scenes, discussions have been going on.

    IMO, the 4th round tender tells me that they've been talking with CB's on the market, and intend to sign one come tomorrow or soon after...
     
  4. RPO IZSB

    RPO IZSB Well-Known Member

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    You used team metrics to justify your opinion of Ross. Therefor, those same team stats should inform your opinion of Davis/Burns... but of course they do not, since you pick your opinions out of thin air and then use the most basic and poorly correlated stats to justify it.


    That's just a stupid statement.

    Where are team's throwing against the Steelers?
    What % of passes are thrown at Ross
    Of that %, what is Ross completion %
    Of those Completions, what % of yardage is YAC?

    Those are actually valuable stats to understand performance


    go back and watch

    It's like you strive... extra hard... to say the dumbest thing possible.

    You DO need to look at his stats, because your eyeball test is terrible
     
  5. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Did Ross do something to someone to warrant such resentment?


    No one is stating Ross is Patrick Peterson or even Richard Sherman for that matter. What me and others are stating is that Ross is a quality starter to have on the team.


    He definitely had some bad moments in the season, such as the catch he gave up against Brandon Marshall (even though Ross' coverage was as good as it gets), but nothing glaring of note really. He has been rock solid since starting in 2015 and has helped the team more often than not. Him and Burns really were not the issue in the AFC Championship game. Outside of Javon Hargrave's sack... a lack thereof in addition to pressures were the issue.



    Now, do we need another corner? Sure. Must it be a slot corner? Absolutely. Will the team be hurt more should Ross leave in trade for a pick that may not work out in search of one? Most definitley.



    To end this, of all the things we, as fans, should hope for, getting Ross back on our team should be a concern but the least of our worries.


    Attacking Tom Brady with an effective pass rush is top priority.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    You can't pass rush until you are a threat to stop the quick throw...Ross is in no way shape or form a threat to do that...This is what Ross has done to me given up 18 yards on 3rd. and 18...Giving up 16 yards on 3rd. and 16...Giving up 14 yards on 3rd. and 14...So while he may not give up big plays he allows other Teams to keep trying for them...Not a good quality CB...

    If we had the All Madden Team rushing the passer with weak soft coverage you would see little to know difference in the pass rush...
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    :hmm:


    Hmmm.... intriguing.


    Soft coverage you say? Are you referring to the schematics based on the formation, Keith Butler's play calling, or Ross Cockrell's coverage alone, a combination of the two or all three?


    In addition, a pass rush does matter in every facet of the game; the front seven for that matter doubly so. In the grand scheme of things, teams like the Seahawks, Patriots and Broncos can attribute their Super Bowl victories towards said defensive necessity. Having a pass rush decreases a quarterbacks timing, disrupts his momentum, and ultimately forces him to make errant throws when under duress.



    Tom Brady is clearly the greatest quarterback from a statistics standpoint when facing either man or zone. Neither coverage matters if you do not have the essentials and assests to attack then sack him; up the middle, his blindside or otherwise. Ironically enough, the first sentence is more so of Belichick's doing in the fact that he stategically and tactically seeks to expose personnel weaknesses and uses formations to attack said weaknesses; all the more reason in the past five years the NFL has gone away from matchups based on formation weaknesses to matchups designed to exploit personnel weaknessess. This applies to both sides, which again, calls for the need to get to the passer before he can strike. Why else has pass rushing been so coveted since Lawrence Taylor?




    To end this, as I stated in my previous response, Ross has done far more good than bad for us. Seldom have I been disappointed in him since starting in 2015 and my opinion of his level of play has been unchanged to this day.



    To ascend towards "The Stairway To Seven", one final piece is needed. That piece must be an edge rusher; regardless of how we get it. Once obtained, along with another corner and some depth at other positions, our true run to the "Stairway" can commence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. RPO IZSB

    RPO IZSB Well-Known Member

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    Hilarious
    This guy sites the need to stop the quick throw, and then references 3rd and long plays

    Newsflash... a pass rush neutralizes deep comeback routes at the sticks.

    You simply aren't equipped to evaluate coverage.
     
  9. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Agree with pretty much all of this. One thing that keeps getting overlooked about the AFCCG is just how poorly our offense performed. The inability to put together long drives on offense was toxic for our defense (never mind the fact that we never challenged on the scoreboard, which also takes a toll on the defensive players).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Indeed. Seldom do I blame coaching, but the lack of the "Heavy" package via Chris Hubbard and no Nix was quite troubling to me in goaline situations.



    Worst part is some of those situations I believe he had Bell before he got injured correct?
     
  11. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Indeed.


    Bill Belichick could be alluded to Sun Tzu but with a more tactical approach given the nature of the game and without needing to worry about sacrificing lives. He is only strategic when he needs to be; Super Bowl LI being a good starting point of course.


    To beat Belichick's "offensive campaign", a "blitzkrieg" front seven is needed; one that smash through his defences and land hits.
     
  12. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Make no mistake, he'd sacrifice lives in a second to get an edge! Good thing for the NFL such practices are discouraged.

    I agree fully that the key to beating Brady is pressure. Atlanta did it for almost 3 quarters and gave up 3 points. As soon as the pressure faded, they were eaten alive on the back end. Coverage definitely helps, but pressure is king.
     
  13. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Oh I am sure he would to! :lolol:


    Either way, we can borh concur and agree that pressure makes the difference between victory or defeat.:thumbs up:
     
  14. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    The problem is WR'S are not running crazy multiple fakes hard to figure out routes...Even when the Steelers get teams 3rd. and long they allow the WR to run to the stick and break to the sideline or they allow the 4 yard pass and run for the rest of the yardage...With 4.5 forty WR'S with no contact it takes them 2.0 seconds to get deep enough to pick up 3rd. and longs...This doesn't allow the pass rush the time to get home ....

    So to beat these Teams you have to Jam WR'S or reroute them and then you have to get pressure ...So my problem is with the scheme and with the players ..I can't blame Butler much as when he tries to go man our guys get beat right off the LOS ..We must be able to man up esp. in long yardage situations, Ross nor Gay nor Mike nor Timmons can do this as such this D will always be weak if they are on the field they limit us to zone only and Brady will simply eat that alive before any pressure can get to him...
     
  15. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Zone would have been a lot more successful had guys done what Cockrell alluded to in an interview during their win streak. The message, do your job.

    Had they played like they did the first time in the season, and had they not lost Bell, that game would have been much different. Dont know if they would have won but it would have been competitive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82

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    Yep.

    Against the Pats in the AFCCG, Steelers gave up around 65% of 3rd down conversions.

    This is compared to just over 40% average for the year. Which isn't great, but is an example of just how badly they were executing on the day.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. SanDiegoSteel

    SanDiegoSteel Well-Known Member

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    I dont think the steelers need to go full man coverage against the patriots but at least mix it up to press coverage for some plays. Brady probably doesn't even need to study much facing the steelers since its the same defensive schemes as the last 17 or so years.
     
  18. lovembig

    lovembig Well-Known Member

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    Cockrell like Gay and Burns to this point are serviceable dbs. not great, but decent.

    ive said it before though and ill say it again. find a consistent pass rush and those serviceable dbs will be come pro bowlers.

    the dbs are not the problem everyone wants to fix the wrong problem.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough ...The point now is Teams have learned to out scheme the zone if they have the skilled players to do so...The formula is running sets that put more LB'S on the field that have the ability to flex into passing ones or pass to the RB'S and TE'S from those sets..To get pressure you must send at least 5 that only leaves 6 for coverage and 2 of those are LB'S most of the time...This creates to much space and to many mismatches all that need to be done is for the QB to make the read because someone is getting open...

    This is what Brady does to us.. So the reason they can't do their job is we get out coached and we get out played because we can't match up...We need to be able to play man from time to time and keep them from controlling the game..We can't do that until we upgrade some key spots ...

    My take is I think you can Coach a man DB to play zone , but you can't teach a zone DB to play man ...So we need more man capable DB'S so we can play D more effectively...We need a complete change in our approach of how to play D in today's NFL...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Totally agree with this. Need to mix and match coverages. Each time they tried they gave up large chunks of yards. Theres good DB's in this draft and still possible they sign a FA.

    In the end though, you need to play an absolute perfect game to beat Brady, he's been doing this too long and is too good. They beat 17 other teams last year.
     
  21. SteelerEmpire

    SteelerEmpire Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line is the Patriots owned LeBeau's defense, and now they own Butler's (LeBeau 2.0).

    Hopefully he can make the needed man-to-man changes fast enough so that the D will have a reasonable impact in 2017.

    What I wanna know is why didn't Butler, Tomlin and the GM (all defensive minded guys) didn't see this need coming YEARS ago and already made these adjustments ?? Smdh
     
  22. SanDiegoSteel

    SanDiegoSteel Well-Known Member

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    Maybe its arrogance? They think their scheme is the best and its simply the players not executing? Which has some truth but a part of why they arent executing is because brady finds the holes.
     
  23. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Not necessarily. Zone coverage may require less speed and agility than man, but it's also more mentally challenging. A guy can be the best cover corner in the world, but if he can't mentally grasp his zone assignment, he's going to end up leaving someone completely uncovered - which is usually worse than a lesser corner simply being beaten in man coverage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    hell lets fix the coverage and the pass rush, wouldn't that fix the problem? i'd like more physical tighter coverage on the back end and a pass rush that gets home and can stop the run too. is that too much to ask for? :cool:
     
  25. Iowasteeljim

    Iowasteeljim Well-Known Member

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    Kind of entertaining to watch this back and forth over coverage or pass rush. Truth be told, both are equally important and generally one is not very good without the other. More important to the game of football is timing. Timing is everything...timing on a pass, timing on coverage, timing on blocks, timing on rushing the quarterback, timing on hitting a hole, timing of when a team peaks, timing on when a team plays, timing in all these different phases coming together (or not). This last season I saw times when the secondary was good, I saw times when the pass rush was good, I saw a few times when they were both good at the same time, and I saw a few times neither were good. What is my point? I don't have enough time to tell you!
     
    • Hilarious Hilarious x 2

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