Serious issues with our talent scouts and draft decisions.

Another explanation could be the offense is based on a QB who can extend plays, so mobile QBs are seen as potentially able to do the same as a back up.

 

It's just a very simple fact that you stand a much better chance of finding a contributing defensive player in the 3rd or 4th round than you do of finding an elite QB. Nobody can argue with that. Even if you hated Ben for some reason and thought he stinks as a player, you can't argue that fact. If you have an engine that is working perfectly and a broken drive shaft, I think you would be wiser to spend your money fixing the drive shaft instead of buying another engine

 

That sounds about right to me.

 

But extending plays by staying in the pocket or behind the line of scrimmage, while keeping your eyes downfield, requires totally different blocking than extending plays by tucking the ball and running. It also requires different play from your receivers. In other words, it changes the assignment of 10 out of the 11 guys on the field.

 

I hear ya. I just don’t think the decision making is as black and white as you think. There’s a lot of gray....
How would you feel if they struck gold with MR? You have to draft QBs frequently because of how critical it is to find a good one. You can’t wait until your bad enough to desperately need one. You have to trust in you’re scouting that maybe someone fell through the cracks. Suppose you wait until it all falls apart. Great! We’re picking Top 5. We got this. This is the future of our QB position and you MISS. It happens more often than not. That’s why you have to always monitor and address the QB position. You can’t assume his draft position dictates his success. You never know aka TB. I know it’s a miracle but it doesn’t mean you ignore the position until it’s too late.

 

Come on now. Brady was a complete lottery ticket. No one foresaw his potential which is why he went so late, that was pure luck. You really think 31 teams passed on him 5 times knowing he would be what he is?

 

Say you had a 1st round grade on a QB and he was there in the 3rd round. Would you take a chance drafting that QB?

 

Dumbest post of the year right here

 

You relying on others opinions on a player and not forming your own is the point here.

 

I'm a broken record, I know. But to me, everything circles back to coaching.

I hate using other teams/players as examples because of all the moving parts and that it's rarely a fair comparison.

But I'll do it anyway.

How many people thought Aaron Rodgers was going to be "Aaron Rodgers" while he was backing up Favre for 3 years? Sure there was some trade talk from time to time, but that diamond was sitting there all that time, learning, preparing, and being COACHED properly so that when his # was called, he would be ready.

Alex Smith went #1 in 2005. Rodgers and Jason Campbell went back to back 24th and 25th. Granted, he was a first round pick, but a late one. And if the Packers didn't take him, he would have likely went to the redskins.

Point is that the Pack did it right. They got their guy early enough to coach him up while Favre still had good years left in him.

Obviously we need to draft well, but we need to nurture these guys and give them time and instruction so they aren't thrown into the deep end not even knowing how to doggy paddle.

 

Problem is guys like Wilson and Mahomes. Everyone is looking for instant gratification. Some guys need more time learning, preparing and being coached and as we’ve seen recently fitting a system around the QBs strengths is a huge part of it. I don’t believe we currently have the proper coaching in place to “nurture “ a QB from scratch. Maybe Canada is that guy.

 

The stats have more to do with having a franchise qb, top wr in football, a well coached offensive line, and Connor running well behind it. Subtract Ben, AB, and Munch and we saw how effective Finchter was as a coach. Zero creativity and zero ability to design plays for the players on the field. Our offense was flat out embarrassing despite missing talent. Finchter is there solely because Ben wants someone who will let Ben do what Ben wants to do. Don't kid yourself into believing it had anything to do with his coaching ability.

 

Hey thesteeldeal.

I am on board with you as far as: "especially after only 8 games". Man, you talk about living in a world of instant gratification. I have been in the Mason camp from day one and I am still there. Coach the young man up. If a first year QB lights the world on fire he is more
the exception than the rule. Ben was an "Exception" for sure.

Yeah, I saw a number of things from Mason that made me cringe but I also saw the good things to build off of. Shoot, Ben still does some things that make me cringe. Fans need to give the man a chance. Minus the Browns clunker game, Mason played fairly well. His stats will show that. It did not help either that every week some of our "O" skill-position players were hurt. I cannot recall one game where Washington, JuJu, Deontae and Connor were all on the field at the same time. Plus, where the freak were the TEs all season? It was as if they were never part of the "O" game plan. What was that all about? Our OC and HC did Mason no favors this past season I tell you.


STEELWINDS AKA The East Side Kid

 

Hey STEElWINDS
Same page for sure. Ben had a much better supporting cast when he burst on to the scene. Not knocking him but it’s true. I’m not a what if guy but I can’t help but wonder how much the opinions would be different had a couple guys come through in critical situations. As I said in another post ,what QB would of thrived under the same conditions MR went through. The concussion which came at the end of a play he made that many are saying he is incapable of making. The Cleveland debacle was unprecedented. He was playing decent ball up until then without much help from his teammates and coaches. The doubters may inevitably end up being right but to write him off so soon after what he went through is jumping the gun based on the circumstances he endured.

 

Hey thesteeldeal.

Yeah, I was also going to mention the part that you did about the "supporting cast" that Ben was privy to have. On both sides of the ball at that. And not just the physical talent of that team but the mental and psychological support as well. We had a lot of great leaders on that team during Ben's rookie year. Shoot, to name a few: The Bus, Hines, Kiesel, Farrior and others. Ben was thrust into a very, very ideal situation unlike Mason.

Also, as you mentioned, and I listed a bunch of times here, there was number of games that we lost this past season because of blunders from players not named Mason:

Moncrief: Seattle
Connor: San Francisco
JuJu: Buffalo
JuJu: tirdmore

Key blunders from each of them in those games that contributed big time to very close games that we could have won if not for their miscues. Just disgusting as I say.


STEELWINDS AKA The East Side Kid

 

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken .

 

So I am not sure how you can say MR was a bad pick when at the time he was considered a very good prospect. All you have to do is go back and read the draft profiles and draft grades. Yeah I did watch him and if you followed what I have been saying in the back up QB thread I am ready to move on from him. With that said here is a stat that made me go wow....

In his first 305 college pass attempts, Rudolph was intercepted 11 times. In his final 1,142 passes, he was picked only 15 times.... so there is hope?????

Also with QB being the most important position in the NFL I am on board to draft a QB every single year. I am not saying first of 2nd round every year but take a flyer later on. You never know what you will find and where. Yeah Brady is a fluke but just look at this weekends game. Jimmy G was a 2nd round pick and the Cheats had a QB already but they were smart enough to see talent and then get something for it before they let him go. They have done that with a few QB's and I think it is smart, especially with QB being so important. jmo

 

No question! I just think that since the days of the TB pick the NFL has changed. Today's top QB's start their first or second year and they are, for the vast majority of the time, a top 10 pick. The fact that you can't win consistently in today's NFL without an elite QB, couple with the fact that today's elite QB is not a 3-4 year project, indicates IMHO that you decide when it's time and you do what you have to pick in the top 10 to get your guy. Dabbling in the 3rd or 4th round is tantamount to playing the lottery.

 

Absolutely! And say that QB had a huge upside with one or two glaring weaknesses. Would you immediately work your ass off to fix those fundamental problems or would you just hope that experience fixes them?

 

Try reading post #1 and post #8 of this thread.

 

Do what you have to do to get in the top 10? Tank? Trade up? What happens when you do that and you miss? I’m not so sure the vast majority of top 10 QBs selected pan out as often as you think. I would have to go back and check the last 5 years. I know there’s been some pretty bad misses. The draft is a crap shoot anyway. There have been plenty of non QBs drafted in rounds 3-4 that haven’t made it. The most they can do is do their due diligence. They claimed to have had a 1st round grade. If they would of passed on MR and he turned out to be great somewhere else we’d be killing them for passing on him...

Seeing is how we agree about how important the QB position is, sometimes you have to trust you’re making the right decision even in the 3rd round. If you wait until your top 10 to always take a chance on a QB it problem means the rest of the team isn’t that good anyway...

 

You're absolutely right, there is no guarantee! All I'm saying is that top 10 is a far better chance than 3rd or 4th round. If we are going to look back at history you have to remove the Browns draft picks to correct the imbalance they create And given the importance of QB, you may have to throw some other players or draft picks in to get him? For example, we are strong on defense right now, we may have to sacrifice some players to ensure an elite QB is playing for us next year.

If the Steelers had a first round grade on a guy that was passed on by everyone else 75 times, that might be the problem right there? Sounds like a bad spin to me. "Oh yeah, I meant to hit my ball in the woods, my caddie and I felt there was a really good chance it would bounce out and go in the hole"

Nice debate by the way

 

Yes Sir!

 

I did. Here is the main issue here.



All you were and are stating is that Mason's flaws cannot be corrected and he is a bust. Sure, he does not possess an elite arm but he does have an NFL arm. As for his accuracy, that is mainly due to mechanics rather than arm talent. However, none of that is the biggest point here.



You are using scouting information that you yourself did not study yourself. Using someone else's opinion when studying players is indeed by no means bad. However, when you placate their opinion above all of anyone and anything regarding that said player, it can be implied that their opinion, or opinions, are infallible and should not be question. That is not fair as that severely limits the objectivity of others who have an opinion about that player; Mason in this case.



However, even that is not thr biggest shortcoming in all of this. By allowing an opinion of people who are not in an NFL Front Office overrule those that are, you are implying that those who do not work in such a field exceed the abilities of those that do. Sadly this is not how the NFL works. Unlike those "Arm Chair GMs", these NFL Scouts are sent to scout these players the minute they entet the College Football Field; High School for the select few even. That said, they have far more knowledge than anyone who works for whatever site would have. The only major media members who would have far more information than the general poplus of those who conduct themselves in the scouting community that is not on an NFL Team would be Gil Brandt and Charley Casserly as they have more inmate knowledge of what an NFL Draft War Room looks like given their previous experience as actual General Managers.




Overall, this is not to say that draftniks are not good at their job. Some really are great. However, at the end of the day, it is all subjective as all their opinions are just that, opinions. The best advice?!



Formulate your own opinion and draw your own conclusions with your own research. Don't use someone's information as the end all, be all judgement. Be objective but also give praise when it is due for that player; Mason in this case. Most importantly, understand not just the position of the pick the player was selected as well as not just the position the player plays but the circumstances that are in play for that player.




Again, for Mason, he was thrusted into the starting role due to injury. The deficiencies were there but the potential was too. After the Earl Thomas hit, he did not appeae to be himself; the Myles Garrett incident amplfying this problem even more. He looked much better against New York but got injured. As a result, Mason's grade is still incomplete as there are too many variables in play.

 

You make valid and simple common sense points, to think we know more, or even remotely as much, as the people who make millions of dollars to do their job is foolish. But......the one you are missing is that MR has been in the NFL for two full seasons and despite his limited play, he has been in training camp/practice for two five-month seasons, hundreds of practices and game-time situations and is "still" throwing every pass from his back foot and "still" not looking downfield long enough to find a second read. These are both such fundamental flaws they can, and will, prevent an otherwise talented QB from success.

Is it the the experts not seeing this or is it that MR is not improving his weaknesses?