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Run game vs. passing game - a study

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Maddog78, May 17, 2021.

  1. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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  2. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    ..........


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  3. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    The bit I struggled with was where he said a successful first down run was either 6 yards or 40% of the yards required.

    So a successful run would be 4 yards then, surely?

    It’s a minor point, I know...
     
  4. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    Don't need analytics to know that it's better to lean more towards the passing game more than the running game for several reasons. This is especially true with teams that have franchise QBs.
     
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  5. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    I was confused until I re-read it. On first and 10, 4+ is successful. On first and 15, 20, etc., it has to be 6 or more yards or 40% of the line to gain.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  6. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    But you do need them to answer the criticisms of a team's running game based solely on total yards rushing.
     
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  7. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about that. I guess your definition of "lean" needs to be parsed out a bit. "Leaning" to me sounds like philosophy. I think that's dangerous. When the weather turns, and you're not in a dome, a team that leans on the pass for success will suffer. Balance doesn't mean you're always 50/50. There are times that a balanced offense might face an opponent or condition that requires it to heavily favor one or the other. A balanced team that can do either, and has that mentality and ability, is dangerous against any team at any point in the season, regardless of venue or weather conditions.
     
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  8. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    Yeah, it's phrased to make it seem the other way around when I first read it. Makes more sense now though
     
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  9. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    to me our run sets were so predictable. i could sit in the stands or at home and tell when it was a run play every time. don't they think defenses can too? it's like they say " well ok if we have to run it let's do this and get it over with so we can throw it". hopefully this changes with canada. ben is part of that reason as well. let's face it ben loves to throw it. i think he only runs it because they make him a few times a game. there see it didn't work so let me throw it now. :smiley1::cool:
     
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  10. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    That's OK because Tomlin told them to line up and beat their man and want it more, and if they could not he would blame execution and his lackeys in the media would support him.
     
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  11. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Br nice to run it (in the right formation) even though they know it's coming...at least a few times a game.
     
  12. The Sodfather

    The Sodfather Well-Known Member

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    I'm old school, so I don't study modern analytics. To me, a successful first down run is 3+ yards. If you run the ball on first and second downs and leave yourself at third and three, you've left yourself with an open playbook for what you can run on third. This is especially important when you have a lead in the fourth quarter and you're looking to close a game out. It also keeps your defense on the bench and the other teams' offense there, too. it's not rocket science, all due respect to Josh Dobbs. Sometimes, people make this game way more complicated than it needs to be.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
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  13. JAD

    JAD Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you on this mac, I could also sit at home and tell when it was a run play just about every time. Also think the defenses could see this and when you know when a team is going to run, especially with a one runner in the backfield, that is not good and does not help your running game at all.

    You cannot tell all the time with good coached teams like KC and Tampa if your going to run or pass.
     
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  14. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    A lot of this had to do with personnel and formation. You are severely limited running out of shotgun, giving the defense an extra 2 yards to read motion. Add to that a QB who is zero threat to run if the pocket breaks down/doesn't seal. When almost the only options are a quick pass or a draw or handoff (of which both happen at the same point since Ben can't execute a roll out), the ball is going to be in almost the exact same spot on every single play just before execution. The defense knows that. The guy in the stands who was drunk before finding his seat knows that.

    And @Roonatic is right, at some point you HAVE TO be able to simply beat your man and gut out a win on a down even when the defense is prepared. But our offense wasn't put in enough good situations from a coaching standpoint to tilt the odds in our favor.
     
  15. Vox Ferrum

    Vox Ferrum Well-Known Member

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    I think you hit on football 101 since the 70's. I know the O's have been more pass oriented, and even in the past decade the game is far different than even what we witnessed in the 90's. That said there have been seasons where pass happy O minded coaches have tried a more pass oriented attack with success (at least some). Don Coryell comes to mind, Marino at Miami with the two short WR named Mark (Clayton and Duper?). In the end you till need both phases in some balance for success at the highest level.
     
  16. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    Always going to be exceptions. A wrinkle, or a hard fold like "Air Coryell" will undoubtedly show up through the years. The Michael Vick experience and the Rams' "Greatest show on turf" were perfect storms of personnel and scheme, as was Brady's run with, well, his career, and the Mahomes/Reid juggernaught. I've obviously cherry-picked here. There are many more exceptions. But your point is well taken.
     
  17. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    Beating your man is one thing, how do 6 or 7 blockers beat 8 or 9 defenders?

    Until the Steelers can lighten the box counts, the run game is going to struggle IMO.
     
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  18. Bend Steel

    Bend Steel Active Member

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    I don`t disagree. Really the only way to reduce box count as you term it, is for the QB to TORCH the D on long balls...every time they overload the line. Everyone knows that Bens long ball is long gone....so.... our run game will continue to get destroyed. I almost feel sorry for Najee.
     
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  19. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    Winters are not consistently as bad as they were in the past. Field conditions are generally better because of field heaters. In this day and age I believe it's rare that teams face the type of weather conditions on a consistent basis that they did in the past.

    Yes the NFL has an overall philosophy of leaning towards passing the ball. You don't have to agree with the passing philosophy to understand why most teams choose to pass more.

    I can tell you some reasons I believe teams choose to pass the ball more. The ability to score more points results from passing the ball. More big plays are generated from the passing game. Teams need to have the ability to pass to sustain drives. RB's have a difficult time remaining healthy. Franchise QBs are generally the key to winning in the NFL.

    In an ideal world teams would be able to do both equally well. Sometimes it's not possible to do both equally well for several reasons.
     
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  20. SGSteeler

    SGSteeler Well-Known Member

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    Interesting read. Its definitely true that you don't have to be a top end rushing team in total yards to be an efficient running team tho. Teams like Baltimore and Tennessee are always going to dominate in that department based on their QB situation and way that their team is built. The Chiefs would be idiots to be a top 5 rushing yards team with Mahomes on the roster. But they definitely could run the ball when they wanted/needed to (and that's why they are so tough to play against). Stats can sometimes be misleading when they are viewed through the wrong lens. Sometimes context like this is needed to tell the whole story.
     
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  21. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Ben can still make deep throws, he needs to be more consistent with it.
     
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  22. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Yeah apparently I dont know what deep throws are.
    Because in the Very Last game he play in the playoffs he was making deep throws, and also competing them.
     
  23. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    And get a contract extension.
     
  24. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    Ben is done, QBs need to be able to get away from defenders so they can
    protect themselves. He cannot do this anymore. You look at most of past QB's, they don't lose arm strength,
    they lose the ability to protect themselves.
     
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  25. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    That's why I said, "...our offense wasn't put in enough good situations from a coaching standpoint to tilt the odds in our favor." That would include finding ways to lighten the box count against us. Not disagreeing with you. I think we're saying the same thing with different words.
     
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