P.Manning, and T.Brady are over rated!

I think you need to watch more football!

 

Yes I'm afraid you are. The rules have changed and will continue to change. The one constant though is all players for all teams are bound by those same rules whatever they may be so as a player you adapt your game to take advantage of the rules the best you can. Both of these guys are very good QB's.

 

I'm saying an asterisk that some people want next to wins or records are meaningless. They don't change anything.

Hate to say it but 99.9% of the world gives them credit.

I never said the Steelers cheated in SB 40. Leavy came out and said he blew a few calls... but that doesn't seem to matter to some since it was a Steelers win. I guess an undeserved win as a result of cheating and an undeserved win as a result of ref incompetence are different. Maybe the Steelers SB 40 win should have a half of an asterisk.

 

Manning I don't mind so much. Brady I can't stand! Either overrated? Not in the least. Kind of a silly statement really.

 

If the rules of today were in effect during Marino's time, he would have put up numbers that none of these guys would even come close to. The rules have changed so much to benefit passing games and offensive drives get extended so many time do to calls (illegal contact, defensive holding, PI, roughing, etc) that would have never been called back in those days. The fact that guys still have trouble getting to marinos stats, even with all the advantages they now have make what he did all the more impressive. He never had any type of good defense either, in an era where defense could dominate much moreso. Unitis would have been unreal with the rules of today as well.

That said, both manning and Brady are great QBs.

 

I don't know if there is a "value" in yards per TD; it is merely an indication of a QB's ability to make a big play. Brady is a short pass specialist. There's nothing wrong with that--it's helped him win games. BUT...in a conversation of where he belongs among the other top QBs of all time, I have to knock him down a few notches because he has no big post-season play on his resume and (despite what the media has force-fed us) he doesn't even have a game-winning TD throw in the final 4:00 of a post-season game in his entire career. His most famous play is the tuck, and in every other instance where he's needed to come up big late in post-season games, HE HAS FAILED. Everyone points to his two Super Bowls where he drove the team to win. Give me a break. Those were already tie games. Brady had ZERO pressure on him to get those points. He managed to get the team (barely) into FG range...and neither of the FGs Vinatieri made were chip shots. If the QB gets credit for getting a team into FG position, why isn't Flacco's drive last week thought of as 'clutch"? Why wasn't Jim Kelly's drive toFG position against the Giants in SB XXV thought of as 'clutch"?

Brady couldn't complete the 4th down throw last year against the Jets that cost them. He threw the pick that ended the 2006 AFCCG. He technically threw the pick that ended the divisional playoff a week earlier against the Chargers: but the idiot LB tried to run it back and fumbled, giving Brady a second chance. Heck, even last week, with an opportunity to put the game away against the Ravens he failed.

You say he had no receivers. He sure did in SB XLII. He went into that game undefeated and...pffffft...couldn't score more than 14 points. IN FACT, he got the ball back with :50 seconds left and what happened? Needing to get the ball down field quickly he was an epic fail: 4 and out, and he didn't complete a single pass. Compare this to Kurt Warner a year later who had nearly the same set of circumstances: Warner got the Cardinals to midfield in about 35 seconds.

 

A QB's inability to put together a game-winning TD drive in the final 4 minutes of a playoff game could be absolutely meaningless. How many of those games did Brady have the opportunity or need to do it?

 

If Bradshaw or Montana or Elway (or even Marino or Favre) were QBing in Super Bowls XXXVI and XXXVIII, they would have taken at least one shot to the end zone. Guaranteed. These were men. They would have said, "I'm not putting this in the hands of the field goal kicker. We're ending this right here." (Think Marino to John Brown to win the 1982 Sugar Bowl? THAT is true greatness.)

Remember what Jerry Cantrell told Tom Cruise in Jerry Maguire: "That's how you become great: by hanging your balls out there."

True greatness comes from daring failure for success. Montana to Taylor to win SB XXIII: why throw that pass when the 49ers were already in position to send it to OT? Roethisberger to Holmes to win SB XLIII: why throw that pass when the Steelers were already in position to send it to OT?

 

Whatever floats your boat! Steelers got screwed by those Cheaters. :bs:

 

I must agree here. Big difference between missed/blown calls (happens every game) and being found guilty of cheating and being punished by the league (definitely not a common occurrence). Human error is a way different ballpark than cheating and anyone thinking otherwise is delusional IMO. :hello:

 

The creativity to which Steeler homers will go to discredit Brady is truly astonding.

"Low Risk, Low Reward" ? Yeah, 3 and maybe 4 SB rings is surely low reward. 5 SB appearence, more playoff wins than anybody. What a loser!

Big Play? The guy threw 50 TDs in season. He's gotten ragged on msg boards around here for years for unsportsmanlilkely running up the score. He's taking the 31st ranked D in the league to the Super Bowl. What a loser!

I get it, you hate the guy. Fine. Great. You're entitled. The sad truth is Tom Brady is one of the top 2 QBs of his generation. Is he better than Montana, Starr, Otto Graham, geez who knows. The game and time is different, but he's one of the best now. And if the Steelers had drafted him instead of Tee Martin, you'd probably agree.

But overrated? Not A Chance. The locals pride themselves on how much more football knowledge they have over the dumb-ass fan bases around the league. Don't bring the class average down.

 

I hear you AFan. Some people need to take their Black & Gold glasses off and look at things objectively once in a while. Facts - The NFL didn't take away any of the Pats' Super Bowl titles, they aren't going to put asterisks in the record books, history isn't going to change and Brady and Manning are 2 of the best QBs football has ever seen.

 

I never said I hated Brady. I have a perspective that he's overrated--this does NOT mean I don't think he's one of the top 10 QBs ever. But I gave plenty of support for my point of view.

People aren't always going to agree on these boards and that's fine. Good discussion from varying points of view are great. And it's best when posters bring the reasons for their points of view. I thought I had done that. You may not agree with me, but you can at least respect my reasons for why I feel the way I do.

To insult my intelligence doesn't seem fair. I did the research; I gave the numbers. You can disagree, respectfully, that big-play capability is NOT a criteria for what makes a QB truly great, and that's a healthy debate. But when you insult me, you turn your back on the discussion.

 

Here's an interesting column:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/story/_/id/ ... reat-think

 

I never said Brady and Manning are not good?Where did you get that from?
fact: This is a Steeler discussion board and everyone is entilted to their own opinions
regardless if anyone agrees.Brady is very good obviously.We all know he(they)cheated.
Doing what they did tarnishes their image to me.I don't care if they win the next 10 Super Bowls.I will never
give him(them)complete credit.You don't have to agree,The league does'nt have too either.Manning is a
class act.great QB and solid citizen.I hope he comes back from his neck injury and plays well again.It's not
about having Black & Gold glasses on.Right is Right.once a cheat,Always a cheat.What did Belicheat do in
Cleveland?He was a loser.Don't say he started winning when Brady finally got to start?Brady is very good,But
them cheating/videotaping signals and walkthroughs gave them a huge advantage.(JMOP) How many
playoff games /Super Bowls have they won after they got busted? you don't have to agree.I'm stating facts.

 

Where did I say that you said Brady and Manning are not good?

 

Once a cheat, always a cheat. I will never give him or them credit for their SB wins.

 

Your criteria that labels him as overrated makes no sense though. So he has less yards per TD than other QB's. How does that matter? What difference does it make how you get the job done, as long as you get it done? Ben looks half retarded some times due to him scrambling around like he's in the playground, but despite it often being ugly, he's gotten the job done over the years. What would you say to a Pats fan who judges Ben based on how he looks while winning 2 SB's? What about Ben's worst ever QB rating for a SB winning QB? Does that matter at all?

Yards per TD is meaningless and has no value whatsoever. Perhaps Brady has determined that short throws are more successful than long throws so that's how he chooses to play the game. Perhaps that due to the fact that Brady has had mostly garbage WR's throughout his career, he hasn't been able to throw the long ball much. Perhaps the fact that for the last couple years his top WR's have been TE's mean his yards per completion isn't going to be overly high.

You're also ignoring the fact that when Brady had Moss, he threw deep on a regular basis. Think back to 2007, when he and Moss put on a clinic with constant deep balls.

Seriously, creating ways to label Brady overrated makes people look less intelligent as a football fan. Brady isn't overrated whatsoever. TJ Yates had perhaps the best line in football, yet look how he played. If you think a great line makes a good QB great, you need to watch more TJ Yates. A great QB can make a good line look great. A great line may help a QB, but it doesn't make one into a 1st ballet hall of famer.

 

OK, I admit the "over rated " is a bit harsh but my point is these guys needed the rule changes in order to get to the level of a Dan Marino. P. Manning is a gifted and fantastic QB, but he couldn't win a playoff game until the 5 yard chuck rule was established and he complained about recievers getting hit running routes until a rule was finally implemented. The same thing for Brady, if that short passing game was as easy as he makes it look, every team in the league would be doing it and I give him credit for it. However, it hasn't been as easy since he no longer knows what the exact defense is going to be like in years past. The other part of that is when teams figured out the Brady gets rattled after getting hit a few times the league began to bring in QB protection rules, and when he got hurt theymade it illegal to hit a QB low but it seem to be only enforced when he is playing. Ben gets hit below the waist and nothing is called as the refs think he is big and the only way to bring him down is low, so they choose not to call it, the same thing with Vick, but it is his ability to run that is the reason behing the no calls when he gets thumped. Yes, I'm a homer and the over rated thing is wrong but I still don't think you can call either of them the best ever, they are in the top 10, maybe even the top 5 but not the best as they both have benefited from rule being altered in order for them to win big, but I do give Brady more credit as he has been able to play consistantly even after the cheating was taken away and he proved it this year by taking a team with a very poor pass defense all the way to the super bowl.

 

YPA and yards per TD pass simply point out an ability to make the "big play." All the other factors you mention are also huge in assessing a QB's overall value. No doubt. I'm concentrating on one aspect and pointing out that within that category of "big play" Brady is way, way down the line compared to some of the other greats. It's the reason why, despite all of his success, he hasn't made a single play (other than the tuck) that lives on. Does this mean he's not great? No. It just means that I can't place him in the top 5 all time, and the general consensus is that Brady may be the very best ever. Unlike Montana, Elway, Marino, Favre, Staubach, and several others, Brady doesn't have a signature that stands out, and he doesn't because he's a play-it-safe QB, especially in big games.

As for the deep balls to Moss: where were they in SB XLII?

 

I rest my case about Brady. Again, with the game on the line, the guy couldn't make the big play. He threw the pick; missed a wide-open Welker; couldn't get the team down the field quickly enough in the final minute. Great QB. But the guy only knows 5-10-yard passes.

 

:roll:

 

might it also be fair to say that he "only knows 5-10 yard passes" because that is the system that has been implemented in new england?

heard on espn today an argument that made a lot of sense to me. the giants said, "we've got a franchise qb, let's surround him with talent." they went out and got a big, stud receiver (nicks) and surrounded him with talented guys who can run the slants and outs (manningham, cruz, etc). then they went out and drafted a bunch of stud o-linemen from big schools like michigan and ohio state. then they stuck some big horses in their backfield to give the option of a running game (bradshaw, jacobs). new england, on the other hand, has given brady NOTHING to work with. their linemen are from small colleges, their receivers are midgets, and they really have no running game. they just insert some different castoff in their backfield from year to year (corey dillon, danny woodhead, etc). brady's best year: randy moss. coincidence? maybe he doesn't throw deep because he has nobody to throw deep to (see: little wes welker leaping, spinning, and dropping, the winning td). they've got two tight ends, a little white guy in the backfield, and a bunch of little slot receivers and you're saying brady can't throw deep? i wonder why. who is supposed to go deep?

princeton's basketball team doesn't throw a lot of alley oops either. they run a four-corners motion offense. you work with what you have to work with.

 

Brady is a couple of dropped passes from winning 5 Super Bowls.

Manning is great to. That guy is going to be one monster NFL coach! I hope we can somehow bring him here. Never had him and no real reason, but i'll take any reason.