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Official Fire Mike Tomlin thread.

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by 86WardsWay, Dec 26, 2021.

  1. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    But don’t you think Ben is behind the type of offense they run? Hell, he ran Haley out of town because he didn’t like how he ran the offense, threatening to retire and forcing them to choose between Haley and himself.

    Ben wants to do what Ben wants to do.
     
  2. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    I used to think that yes; but then I think how excruciating it must be for Ben to play in the Canada offense.

    I also think how the Steelers FO chose AB over Mike Wallace (Ben's favorite target); cut his buddy Max Starks; fired his buddy Bruce Arians; let Santonio Holmes go to NYJ when he and Ben had great chemistry etc.

    I thought Arians ignored the run game and was excited when he left. The run game is ignored 10 seasons later when we really need one. So it can't just be Arians.

    That sort of thing. Just gradually coming to the conclusion that the Steelers tendencies are Tomlin's not Ben's or BA's necessarily.

    I do agree that Ben wants to throw all the time but if Tomlin wanted to rein that in (not saying it would be easy) he would have. Or he would have drafted another QB to run his offense. Even in 2019 Tomlin wanted a passing offense so I expect we will see more of the same the next couple seasons.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Explain. Are you saying this because I said if Ben throws 45+ times he will turn it over at least twice?

    In the playoffs with Cowher Ben put up 25.6 ppg on an average of 24.5 pass attempts per game 8 INT in 6 games.

    Under Tomlin 25.7 points per game on 37.3 attempts per game with 20 INT in 16 games.

    Instead of complimenting Ben with a running game like Cowher did, Tomlin has chosen to use a high volume passing attack in the playoffs. It has kept the turnovers and points scored about the same even though Ben was a much more experienced QB under Tomlin.
     
  4. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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  5. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Bell is the first player to rush for over 150 yards in his first two playoff games, how is that not complimenting Ben? He also has the Steelers record for most rushing yards in a game with 170 :shrug:.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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    Man, there are so many "coaches" on this board It shouldn't be a problem replacing Tomlin at all!
     
    • Hilarious Hilarious x 2
  7. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    "Don't look at the 13 playoff games with no run game! Look at the 3 playoff games with a run game! See! See! 3 is bigger than 13!"

    And the 54 rushing yards in the AFCCG? Yeah, you're not going to talk about that. 2.7 YPC. Yeah...

    It's funny because I endlessly talked up Munchak's OL and the run game from 2014-2016 being the one effective rushing attack in Tomlin's regime and you are trying to attack me with what I praised the most.

    Leveon Bell put the team on his back like his middle name was "Terrell Davis." And the Steelers actually won playoff games. Exactly. Thank you for making my point. I finally broke through to you.
     
  8. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    It's not. It's dead easy.

    Replace Tomlin with Leftwich/Bowles. It took 2 seasons for Bowles to take the Bucs defense from 31st to 8th. Top 5 this year.

    The Bucs faced Brees, Rodgers and Mahomes and gave up 18.3 ppg.

    The Steelers faced Mayfield and Bortles and gave up 46.5 ppg.

    Isn't switching coaching staffs just about the most obvious ****** decision you've seen in your life?
     
  9. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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    This is what I mean. All these guys who know how to look up stats have the solutions. Never mind that none have any experience at the pro level, if any at all!
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. This is the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. Urban Meyer has tons of football experience so I guess you would just defer to him on every point he made about football?

    I swore up and down Johnny Manziel and Josh Rosen would be busts but not the "experts." So sometimes they get it wrong.

    Why are you even on a football forum if you only trust experts when there are dozens of ex-pros doing podcasts etc.?

    ...

    I present to you that there is the most obvious solution to the coaching problem. You don't even agree there is a problem. You think 45 points allowed is normal against Bortles who isn't even in the NFL any more. :facepalm:

    You don't think bringing in a coaching staff that beat Rodgers, Brees and Mahomes on the road in the same year by holding them to 18 points a game is worth trying. :facepalm:

    Shouldn't you be watching Nate Burleson or Dan Orlovsky tell you what to think right now?
     
  11. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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    Better them than you.
     
  12. Thor

    Thor Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for what Scribe meant, but what I've seen from you lately are a slew of seemingly rapid-fire replies (some replying to the same post more than once over a span of a few minutes), often containing stats shotgunned about that aren't necessarily related to the argument at hand - but even when they are tend to be from a sample too small for the extrapolation in the conclusions you make to be valid.

    This would be an example. I don't disagree with your notion that the team transitioned to a heavier passing attack over Ben's first five years - and maintained that iteration throughout his career - but I also think Ben had as much to do with that as anyone else. Whether or not Tomlin or the FO should've stepped in and forcibly maintained more of a balance is more of a debate for the Hindsight is 2020 forum, but I find the Cowher 'complimented Ben with a running game' statement to be disingenuous due to the limited time they had together - as well as Ben in the NFL - as well as some of the trends going on at the time.

    It's fair to suggest Cowher would have kept a running game involved based upon his strategies over the first 13 years of his tenure (he did want Andrews drafted over Ben), but he had also shown a divergence from traditional Steeler mindset with the transition to an offense that included players like "Tommy Gun" Maddox at QB; RBs in the style and stature of Zereoue and eventual-starter Parker; and investing eight draft picks over five years in the WR position from 1998-2002, including two first-rounders and one each from the second, third, and fourth rounds.

    So a shift was already forming; how far it would have continued under Cowher is a debate that contrasting stats from the games in Ben's first two playoff years against all the rest in his career under Tomlin doesn't really answer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree. Whenever in Ben's career did He run bootlegs, or call them before now. 3, or 4 times. Hell We run them more than that in a half.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    And got Hurt,and out of the AFC Championship the same year in the 1st half. Hell Bell was out most of the playoffs games he was here if I remember correctly.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Ben used to roll out all the time, he was lethal throwing the ball on the run.
     
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  16. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    You are correct...Though those were not designed. He just did it 2 buy time . These are designed.
     
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  17. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Yes, my bad, you were specifically talking about play action. He’s never liked it but that tends to back up my point, he didn’t like it and didn’t do it.

    He’s at the end of his career now, not as much leverage and I guess just trying to do whatever helps to win.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    So you're accusing me of gish gallop? There is more than one way of making an example so sometimes I will use more than one. Also, often multiple people pile on so I engage multiple people at once.

    I just finished saying that Ben could not keep the offensive coordinator he liked in Arians. They are BFFs to this day. If Ben was running the team Arians would have been promoted to Head Coach in 2012. Max Starks is another friend of Ben's who was cut in favor of Jonathon Scott who was terrible. Mentioned how Ben hates "dink and dunk" but has been playing it for three seasons. So I gave multiple examples (sorry that's bad) of why I do not believe that Roethlisberger is in control of the offense. I'm not being speculative- there isn't any indication that Roethlisberger has been able to choose his personnel or system over the years. If Ben was calling the shots Bruce Arians would still be with the Steelers- would anyone argue that point?

    Just because I can give multiple examples to support a position doesn't mean I am "shotgunning replies." You ignored them all. Everything I just said about how Ben couldn't keep his two best friends on the team you completely ignored. This is why I get how I get.

    ...

    Yes, Bill Cowher 100% would have supported Ben with a run game. How can we be certain? 1. Because Cowher finished top 10 in rushing in 13 of 15 seasons. 2. Because he wasn't just from the Schottenheimer coaching tree that was his mentor and even "idol" might not be too strong a word. When Schottenheimer had Drew Brees he was top 10 in rushing 4 straight years. In Drew's 3rd year as a starter (4th season) he threw 27 TD to 7 INT but Marty still ran the 4th most in the NFL for the 6th most yards.

    Tomlin is the opposite. Tomlin had one of the best OL from 2014-2018 and a Pro Bowl RB in his prime but the Steelers did not run the ball. Tomlin hasn't finished higher in rushing attempts than 15th since Arians was OC. There aren't many coaches who value running the ball less than Bruce Arians but Tomlin seems to be one no?

    As Ben developed the offense would have changed. Remember that Bruce Arians would have been OC whether Bill or Mike was the HC- he was an internal hire and a pretty good one. But even Arians was top 10 in rushing attempts three times as OC for the Steelers.

    ...

    You're pretty much the only person I've ever debated with that doesn't accept that Cowher would have had a run game regardless of who his QB was. Most of the time for the last decade people just accuse me of bring lost in the past wanting to play Marty Ball.

    For the last 3 seasons with Mason Rudolph/Duck Hodges at QB and then advanced age Ben at QB? Yes. I would have liked to play some Marty Ball. I think it was a major mistake to be 29th in rushing when we needed to take pressure of the QB.
     
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  19. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    No one said Ben runs the team and makes personnel decisions. We said he runs the offense. You really think Ben is the one that wants to run the ball and Tomlin is saying no, I want you to sling it. Come on man. I’m talking about earlier years, not now. They can’t run now, they have no line.

    He did do the dink and dunk under Haley and hated it so much he got Haley fired. Ironically, now all he does is dink and dunk.
     
  20. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    No, I do not think Ben wants to run the ball. It isn't his choice to make is my point, and the Steelers don't have any problems changing off a coordinator he loves or a LT he loves or a WR he loves. If Ben does control the offense how come he didn't keep Arians as OC?
     
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  21. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    Big difference between a bootleg and running because of pressure
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. The two seasons Bell was available in the playoffs were 2016-17 (but he couldn't last through that) and 2017-18 when Bell missed the team meeting before Jacksonville.

    Najee getting hurt just in time for the playoffs brought back some memories.

    It really doesn't matter to Tomlin his star running back gets injured year after year. He will never use more than one running back. He never changes his thinking based on an experienced result.

    Najee did give the Steelers the best chance to win and was a 1st specifically because he is the best back on 1st and 3rd down and short yardage. I just wish we had an OL that allowed for less talented RBs to have some production and give Najee a break. He had at least 200 more snaps than just about any other RB.
     
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  23. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Nuance is lost on you, isn't it? This isn't a binary thing. Roethlisberger gets to do whatever he wants or he doesn't. There are times he gets his way, and there are times he does not.
     
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  24. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Well then how do you know which is which? How do you know when Ben is getting his way?

    So Ben can't keep his friends on the team but can force the coaching staff to ignore the running game? It wasn't even an upgrade when the Steelers pissed off Ben by changing his LT from Max Starks to Jonathon Scott. It was a massive downgrade. Ben didn't even get his way when it made sense.
     
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  25. Steelmatic83

    Steelmatic83 Member

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    Fire the author!!!!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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