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No HOF for the BUS

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by mdbates2, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Oct 22, 2011
    Curtis Martin is overrated as a HOF candidate. I think they picked him soley on number of yards over Bettis and it was the wrong call to make.

    Bettis along with Hines were the face of the league for years. Bettis style of play was memorable. He was an ambassador for the game.

    Yes, the Bus never had a rushing title, but I would never consider Martin the heads and tails best at his position any year he was in the league. Definitely not that much better than the Bus. Martin never meant to his team on offense what the Bus meant to the offense in Pittsburgh.

    You can write the story of the NFL without Curtis MArtin...but not Jerome Bettis....
     
  2. mdbates2

    mdbates2 Well-Known Member

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    This was the year of the lineman, and Martin's numbers were slightly higher than Jerome, AND there is no way they would have elected 3 Steelers in one year. So, since Butler and Dawson were long overdue, it seems logical to put Curtis in there this year, and let Bettis wait until next. What's one more year? Unless you're a 1st Ballot HOF member, no one even remembers how many tries it took you.
     
  3. Boomer

    Boomer Well-Known Member

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    Dec 11, 2011
    The Bus will get in, no doubt. Just wasn't his year. But I am happy that Dirt Dawson made it in!
     
  4. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    There's a lot in that. I never really "got" Curtis Martin, if that makes sense. Obviously, he was a great, great running back. But I guess I never saw his signature in the game int he way that Bettis (or Emmitt Smith, or Eric Dickerson, etc. etc.) did. If I'm listing off my all-time running backs, it usually takes me some time before I get to Martin.

    But that's just me, of course, and probably the reason why I don't get to decide who goes into the HOF.
     
  5. TheWanderer

    TheWanderer Well-Known Member

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    Oct 20, 2011
    i have no problem with the bus not making the hall this season. as it's been pointed out, the inclusion of dawson (and to a lesser extent, butler) made it EXTREMELY difficult for bettis to get elected this year.

    c-mart's and bus's stats were nearly identical.

    the reasons i like bettis over c-mart:
    *a super bowl ring
    *6 pro bowls to c-mart's 5
    *bettis was really the face of his franchise, c-mart was merely a part of his teams
    *personality: bettis was a huge personality while c-mart, admittedly, didn't even like football. he saw it as a job. he said he never even watched football games outside of the ones he played in.

    why i like c-mart over bettis:
    *5 all-pros to bettis's 3 (how does someone get named to more all-pro teams while making less pro bowls? . . . popularity)
    *higher on the all-time rushing list
     
  6. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Jan 27, 2012
    I think many of you are not giving enough due to Curtis Martin. The HOF is supposed to be for excellence and basically over 11 season Martin was annually a top 5 RB. Keep in mind he averaged nearly 1300 yards a season, plus he was a legit receiver with over 40 receptions something like 8 or 9 times as well. Bettis was not the same back the last 4-5 years of his career, he never did catch over 40 passes in a season. Yes he was an ambassador for the game and a good guy....but I look at Martin as getting in as justice. The way I look at it Art Monk should have been long before Michael Irvin - but people got too hooked into the playmaker as opposed to a guy who when he retired was the all time leading WR in receptions.

    I am not knocking Bettis - he is a deserving HOFer and he will get in, but we shouldn't denigrate Martin for his outstanding career. By the way - major kudos to Dirt getting in, I am so happy he got in.
     
  7. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Oct 22, 2011
    I think Chris Carter trumps the Bus and Martin. To me it is not all about numbers, its kind of like Ditka says, "You know it when you see it."
     
  8. diehardsteel

    diehardsteel Well-Known Member

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    Chris Carter is not very well liked by many of the voters and yes, there's some politics in the voting, like it or not. I have no problem with Curtis Martin as his stats were good, but not great, and he's a Pittsburgh guy. But love the Bus and although his stats were slightly lower than Martin's, Bus did help bring home an NFL title while Martin never did achieve a ring. I think Bus is almost automatic next year.
     
  9. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Jan 27, 2012

    But don't you think winning a ring gets too much emphasis in HOF voting. I know it matters, especially for QB who have a major spotlight on them for how they perform in the playoffs and SB. Bettis had little to really do w/that Super Bowl win from a playing standpoint - yes he was a large motivational force - but if that fumble against Indy is returned for a touchdown does it make Bettis really any less deserving for the HOF. I think there is an argument that Dan Marino is the greatest QB of all time. Montana was awesome, but the guy also played on teams that were awesome both offensively and defensively. The 49ers also had a running game for many of those years as well. What if Marino would have played on those 49er teams, would it be obvious that he is the greatest of all time.
     
  10. diehardsteel

    diehardsteel Well-Known Member

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    Oct 19, 2011

    But don't you think winning a ring gets too much emphasis in HOF voting. I know it matters, especially for QB who have a major spotlight on them for how they perform in the playoffs and SB. Bettis had little to really do w/that Super Bowl win from a playing standpoint - yes he was a large motivational force - but if that fumble against Indy is returned for a touchdown does it make Bettis really any less deserving for the HOF. I think there is an argument that Dan Marino is the greatest QB of all time. Montana was awesome, but the guy also played on teams that were awesome both offensively and defensively. The 49ers also had a running game for many of those years as well. What if Marino would have played on those 49er teams, would it be obvious that he is the greatest of all time.[/quote:2djnh8lr]

    It certainly carries weight, and no I don't think it gets too much emphasis. Championships are why most play the game, not personal production.
     
  11. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Winning rings is what it is all about. The Bus was on his last leg, and a big reason they even got to the playoffs was his resurgence in the last quarter of the regular season after Deuce fell off. You could say he was a big reason Steelers got that ring.
     
  12. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    It certainly carries weight, and no I don't think it gets too much emphasis. Championships is why most play the game, not personal production.[/quote:fr5i9bwa]
    It carries way, way, way, way too much weight. SB wins are the definition of a team accomplishment, and HOF is the definition of an individual accomplishment. They care about rings as much, if not more than they do individual achievements. It's crazy. I'm not always a guy who believes in stats, and many times they can be misleading. A player always plays better or worse than his stats.

    Michael Irvin -- Made it into HOF on third year of eligibility
    159 games || 750 Rec || 11,904 Yards || 15.9 Avg || 74.9 YPG || 87 Long || 65 TD || Super Bowl Rings: 3

    Andre Reed -- Still not in HOF, after seven years of eligibility
    234 games || 951 Rec || 13,198 Yards || 13.9 Avg || 56.4 YPG || 83 Long || 87 TD || Super Bowl Rings: 0

    Cris Carter -- Still not in HOF, after seven years of eligibility
    234 games || 1,101 Rec || 13,899 Yards || 12.6 Avg || 59.4 YPG || 80 Long || 130 TD || Super Bowl Rings: 0

    Notes:

    -I believe Michael Irvin played worse than his stats. That is, his stats are inflated. He famously committed offensive pass interference every single chance he got, and was almost never ever called for it. This is and was common knowledge. He happily acknowledges that he broke the rules almost every play of his career, but says it ain't cheating if you're not caught. I hate this about him, but I hate the NFL for not putting a stop to it and letting him laugh all the way to the Hall of Fame. He had a great quarterback for most of his career and was always the #1 guy.

    -I believe Andre Reed played as well as his stats. He had a great quarterback for most of his career, but was also in a wide open system with many other talented wide receivers that took balls away from him.

    -I believe Cris Carter played better than his stats. He never had the QB that the other two had, and was the most talented of these three. Better hands, amazing red zone threat. Twice Irvin's TDs. Through his entire career, he was widely considered the best WR in the league not named Jerry Rice.

    -Carter and Reed both have higher overall stats, but have lower Yards per game and TDs per game than Irvin. This is in large part because Irvin's career ended suddenly, with a steep dropoff in ability followed by a neck injury, whereas Carter and Reed kept playing for an additional 4 years and faded away gradually. Their averages may be lower, but their longevity should be considered. Also, everyone knows YPG stats are not what voters look at. They look at overall rank of a player in career receptions, yards, and TDs. Carter and Reed rank well above Irvin in all three, especially Carter (350 more catches and 65 more TDs!).

    This is about rings, and it's disgraceful. Yes, rings can sometimes be a factor (did your QB finally make it to the big game and then fail miserably when it counted? Did your QB have 8 mediocre seasons and then play sensationally in 3 Super Bowl runs?). But come on, these guys? Even quarterbacks need good teams around them to make it, and these guys are wide receivers. Irvin did not win by himself (in fact, I'm sure Dallas would have won all three without him), and Reed and Carter had nothing to do with their teams' losses. What more could they have done? Irvin got in by way of Super Bowl wins, and it is proof that the entire system is broken.


    EDIT: I completely forgot about...

    Tim Brown -- Still not in HOF, after three years of eligibility
    255 games || 1,094 Rec || 14,934 yards || 13.7 Avg || 58.6 YPG || 80 Long || 100 TD || Super Bowl Rings: 0
    Also an outstanding punt returner for over half his career. Never really had the QB, but went 9 straight years with 1,000+ yards and lasted a long time before winding down.
     
  13. grahamburgher

    grahamburgher Active Member

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    Nov 9, 2011
    Let's also show a little hometown pride for Curtis Martin.... Pitt, Taylor Alderdice, and for me, all the way back to McKeesport Little Tigers. Not a Steeler, but a Burgher at heart.
     
  14. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    I don't buy that. Here is the Bus' last 4 regular season games and post season stats for that SB winning year.

    Team carries yards TDs
    Chicago 17 101 2 (this was the game he ran over Urlacher)
    Minnesota 9 16 0
    Cleveland 7 24 1
    Detroit 10 41 2

    Cincinnati 10 52 1
    Indianapolis 17 46 1 (but don't forget the fumble)
    Denver 15 39 1
    Seattle 14 43 0

    That's a total of 362 yards on 99 carries (3.7 a carry) w/8 TDs. I would say he was a contributing factor yes, big factor no.
     
  15. dkblue

    dkblue Well-Known Member

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    Oct 17, 2011
    Man, talk about a Steeler hater. This rat fan is obsessed with Bettis.

    =========

    LukeDaniel






    Regular 1st Stringer


    Join Date: Sep 2011Posts: 650


    Re: Hall of Fame 2012



    Of all the names above, the only two I don't think are HOFers are Greene and Bettis. Don't know enough about Stanfel to say definitively.

    There is simply no merit for Bettis being in the Hall of Fame. None whatsoever. A HOFer should be a great football player. Bettis was not that. He was a good football player for a while, but rarely bordered on great.

    Consider the following bits of data:

    1) Pro football reference rates him as the 386th best player in the history of football since 1950. There are roughly 180 post-1950 players in the Hall of Fame. So, even if there was a HOF, and a "backup hall of fame", there is no clearcut argument that Bettis belongs in either.

    2) When you consider his production against other RBs that are also borderline HOFers (or not even viable HOF candidates), Bettis comes up shy as well. This shows you that PFR's approximate value does not discriminate against running backs. For instance, Edge James (hardly considered a first ballot HOFer) is ranked as the 60th best overall player of all-time and even Warrick Dunn, who will never sniff Canton, is ranked 187th.

    3) DeCleetz mentioned it but Bettis' sub-4.0 YPC statistical line should doom him. That is a fairly important stat for a running back. When you consider the average RB in the NFL averages around 4.06 YPC, Bettis was actually performing at a below-replacement level for his career. How on earth can you endorse a player with that type of statistical void? It's not like in other sports, where there are other stats that determine your value. YPC is the singular measure of your qualitative efficiency and Bettis just doesn't stack up. I'm not 100% sure that Curtis Martin does either, but he offers more than Bettis in every area of evaluation.

    4) People like to mention how Bettis is 6th all-time in rushing. He's also fourth in career carries.

    5) Bettis only had one season, out of 13 as a pro, with a single-season AV of more than 12. His top three AV seasons were 15,12,11. By comparison, Ray Rice's three best AV seasons are 18,16,13. Rice has already had a better top-end value through four NFL seasons than Bettis did in his whole career. Funny how some of the people who talk about Bettis being a no-brainer also talk down Rice's Canton chances.

    6) Bettis added nothing as a pass receiver. In 13 seasons, he had less than 1500 receiving yards. Again, using Rice as a barometer, Rice has already had 150% more receiving yards in 4 seasons than Bettis did in his long career. Of all HOF running backs since 1950, only Larry Csonka averaged less than 10 receiving yards per game. Bettis averaged 7.5 receiving yards/game for his career.


    So what about Jerome Bettis makes him a hall of famer? The only answer is that quantitatively he racked up a lot of rushing yards. Naturally, they came despite a total lack of qualitative contributions or approximate value contributions. He wasn't efficient with how he ran the ball. He scored a low ratio of TDs for the amount of carries he accumulated (especially for a "short yardage" back), and he added no value in the passing game.

    I'm not really sure why we are having this debate. Why aren't we debating why Eddie George got snubbed? They both retired right around the same time. At least George could catch the ball out of the backfield a little and had a few solid seasons where his AV was a least approaching HOF worthiness. From 98-00, George had back-to-back-to-back AV seasons of 12-15-14, far better than any stretch offered up by Bettis.
     
  16. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Oct 22, 2011
    Apparently he rates Bettis entirely on "Pro football reference.com" F-that. This guy obviously never watch Bettis play during his prime. Eddie George, are you kidding me? That guy was good career for 4 years and then his knees failed him.
     
  17. dkblue

    dkblue Well-Known Member

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    Oct 17, 2011
    None of these stat guys use the eye test or measure how many times a guy like Bettis closed out a game in the fourth quarter. Total BS.
     

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