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No Hate For Jerry O??

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by TuRnDoWnForWaTT, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    One thing Jimmy O definitely deserves some criticism for (and Butler and Tomlin) is making sure Shazier stopped leading with his helmet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Jarvis had Butler as his coach his first two years. Butler got a promotion.
    Bud has been disappointing. Porters fault or Buds?
    Chickalo is probably as good as he's going to get.
    Moats is not even worth talking about.
    Watt didn't regress. He did what most rookies do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    So, are you okay with Porter as our OLB coach? I think we can do better. I just think an effective position coach knows how to get the most out of his players. Some have more athletic ability than others but a good coach, through the teaching of proper technique and fundamentals, can get the most out of those players with lesser athleticism. I think Munch has demonstrated that with our offensive linemen. Look at what he's done for AV, Gilbert, Hubbard and Finney. All of these guys are limited athletically but Munchak has worked with them and what they lack in athletic ability they make up for in football intelligence and technique. I just don't see Porter's players progressing in that way.
     
  4. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    That as well.


    I understand tackling has become a lost art but the fundementals as well as game tape are still teaching tools.


    Why did any of them not adhear to Ryan's history of reckless abandon is something I will never understand.
     
  5. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Alejandro and Marcus Gilbert are not limited athletically by any means. Otherwise you are correct regarding Hubbard and Finney. Coaching does assist the development of talent in a specific sense


    Within that same vein though, using Joey Porter as a scapegoat to justify why the sack production from the outside linebackers were down is looking at this defense's main issue through a vaccum. Much of the shortcomings this season had to do with Butler's current scheme and his inability to KISS for the talent he has at his disposal; his inability in implementing a failsafe in the event Ryan Shazier getting hurt doubly so. Other factors, such as Bud's inability to stay healthy also were speedbumps. T.J. Watt was Porter's shining achievement of the season as he is not only athletically gifted but a hard nosed linebacker to boot.


    Now, as I said in another thread, should much of the same be seen with Porter from the likes of both Watt and Dupree, then and only then will I call for his exit. Until then however, I am still giving Joey the benefit of the doubt.
     
  6. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    AV is a decent athlete, you are correct about that. I guess a better way to put it is that he was making the transition to a position that required a different athletic skill set and Munchak helped him develop into a Pro Bowler. As for Gilbert, if he were that great of an athlete he'd be a LT, lol. He underperformed before Munch came along, now he seems to get it. That was my larger point. Somewhere along the line, the switch was flipped and that's what a good position coach can do for a player. I don't get the impression that Porter is flipping any switches.
     
  7. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I am glad you said this cause if I said it I know a few guys that would have been all over me. :shrug:
     
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  8. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    Jackattack. I don't know that you can compare what Munchak does to an OLB coach. An Oline coach is basically a coordinator. Munch has 5 guys on the field who all need to perform as one cohesive unit. There is timing involved, splits, line calls, communication of where pressure is coming from, etc. A lot goes into being an O line coach, beyond just developing talent and teaching technique. I don't think Porter or Olsavsky do anything in terms of scheme. My guess is they just run guys through position specific drills and teach techniques.

    Munchak does a great job, but his success is a little easier to see than that of an OLB coach.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Yes I'm fine with Porter. If they feel the need to upgrade I'm fine with that too.
    I think the fact that our OLBers are being used differently than we're used to has people questioning Porters effectiveness.
    More than one insider on SNR has said that Dupree has not been used to sack the QB, but to force the QB up in the pocket for the DL. I question if they are making excuses for him, but it kinda makes sense considering we had a lot of sacks and a lot of them came from inside pressure?
    If Porter wasn't doing what was asked of him I'm sure Butler would want him gone?
     
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  10. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Jimmy O and Jerry Porter?
     
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  11. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    SS wasn't very good. I don't think he was practice squad eligible so that logic doesn't work.
    Wasn't BOZ sitting on the couch when we brought him in to replace Suisham?
     
  12. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    Actually if you look at watts full season of work he was as productive in his last 8 games as he was in his first 8, not any big drop off like everybody seems to think, he had more tackles in the second half of the season than he did in the first half:

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3045282/tj-watt
     
  13. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Wow you and I don't usually agree on a lot...if anything lol but man right here I am with you 100%. If porter stays I am fine and if he goes I am fine as well. The way I feel however isn't so much about his coaching as it is about how he conducts himself and him being a leader not "one of the guys". The whole point about Dupree may be spot on however his tackling stunk and you can't blame that on Porter. :thumbs_up:
     
  14. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't compare a kicker to an ILB, that just isn't fair. jmo
     
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  15. Iowasteeljim

    Iowasteeljim Well-Known Member

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    I think Porter needs to go or at the least, his responsibilities lessened. I'm not a Porter hater. I actually loved him as a football player. I think if he limited himself to working with one individual at a time he would probably be a great coach, but unfortunately he is coaching a position. I believe that is asking too much of him.
     
  16. CK 13

    CK 13 Well-Known Member

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    No player college or professional is above being coached. That's why they have position coaches.

    Munchak is a position coach. How's that unit performing? Richard Mann?

    No one on this defensive staff should be comfortable with the results. That's why they are employed. We have seen change in which was needed. The holding on to Joey Porter baffles me. I said before that Jerry O gets a pass. He was dealt a horrible blow with Shazier's unfortunate injury and with the shoulder injury to Matakevich. They had to sign a guy off the couch because LJ Fort is not starting material. But neither is Spence.

    When you have three 1st roundrs to work with, one failed miserably, one is close to that edge and one declined as the season went on, then yes, the development is failing. Need a fresh approach ala defensive line, defensive backs.
     
  17. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with much of this, but I also firmly believe the proper technique and fundamentals is crucial to every position. All of these guys are good to great athletes and sometimes it's the ones that pay closer attention to the details that are the most successful. Chuck Noll was an absolutely tremendous teacher of the game and he wanted to hire coaches who were teachers. I remember a story that Andy Russell tells about Noll when he first became the coach of the Steelers. He said Noll had been observing his set up before the ball was snapped and he told Russell to move his right leg back another 3-4 inches along with some other more technical points. Russell said that, even though it was a simple suggestion, that it actually helped a great deal. I realize that there's alot more to being a great linebacker than moving your leg back a little bit, but Noll had observed something in Russell's game that he felt could be fixed with a simple adjustment. He was a teacher and he wanted those under him to be teachers. Joey Porter is not a teacher.
     
  18. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    This isnt directed at you Glenn but I wanted to add in the problem wasn't that Spence wasn't good enough it was the coaching staff decided they didn't want to reinvent the wheel so they tried to uses 3 guys to try and fill Shaizer''s shoes and it didn't work instead of evaluating what they did have and finding a scheme that worked for that. They could have had the greatest position coaches in the world and you can't get three guys with lesser talent to accomplish what Ryan did himself.
     
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  19. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    This^. also look at the hiring of Dunbar,he seems t be a technician and big on fundamentals as well. There are a couple good articles over at Steelers Depot like tutorials on his coaching style and beliefs. DL coach is a coaching position just like LB coach.....still waiting to learn about JPs techniques and philosophy.
    We don't hear much of anything about how he is teaching the craft to the young guys.....I would love to see a write up on his coaching abilities....
     
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  20. dobbler-33

    dobbler-33 Well-Known Member

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    Position coaches should be emphasizing things or cultivating things that these young men should have already learned. At this stage in the game a position coach really should be able to get a little extra something out of the cumulative bag they've been given and help polish up things while keeping the elementary aspects in tact.

    There's a handful of things at play here in my opinion. I don't think anyone learns how to not tackle, how to not play their position, what their job is not etc... But yet, it seems to happen here. I think we can agree the the LBs are being asked to do different things then what Joey did at his position when he did them. Maybe he is not the best to explain a different set of fundamentals to these kids. Idk... Joeys personal crap isn't helping as far as being a mentor goes but maybe he isn't the dude for this system's new req's or expectations?

    Losing Ryan hurt... But where was the scheme to in the very least "attempt to soften his absence"? It was non existent.

    Every position coach gets a handful of swords to sharpen year in and out. Not all of them swords are gonna deal the killer blow or shape the perfect cut of meat. Just ain't gonna happen. However, they can be put into position to make a scratch another scratch and yet another scratch amounting to something noticeable in the end.

    Regardless of who we have/get so on and so forth, if their desire to get better isn't being molded or if it simply isn't there, then it never will be. That's where this D is at currently. There are horses to run it. There's is a means to mask its holes when said holes/injuries show up. Either the Butler can't or won't do it, the position coaches can't or won't do it or the players can't or won't do it. Not saying that position coaches or the DC need to go, but they need a top to bottom change in philosophy in all of it.
     
  21. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that if you don't have something to work with your not going to get a finished product. What I disagree with is Spence was not good enough..........he is garbage!
     
  22. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    That could be a chicken and egg type of thing. is he garbage because of the system they are playing him in or is his ability to play just garbage? What would he have done playing a more Larry Foote role than trying to be Ryan Shazier 2.0?
     
  23. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Maybe but what I do know is 32 NFL teams felt he wasn't a starter and he wasn't even worth being a back up. Think about that nobody signed him cheap to be a back up, we only did cause of injury and 3/4 of the way thru the season. I think the injuries over his career have added to the fact that he is pretty much washed up. jmo
     
  24. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Dirty Reds injury messed them up. Not saying he would have been up for the task but he was the guy theyd have plugged in.

    The fact that they signed Spence should tell you what they think of the rest.

    And I agree with Thorn, no one was going to replace Shazier, they needed to change schemes.
     
  25. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Not to beat a dead horse but I still think they could of done some things with Watt and Harrison on the field together .....any thing would of been better than the Moats,Spence, Fort etc option......oh well we will never know.....
     

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