Need a NT, blah blah blah

i don't think they have any doubt about cutting him ..

 

With as many holes as we have on defense, we should not have to reach, but you never know how it will pan out by #22.

 

Basing this on anything specific written or quoted, or just good common sense?

 

common sense..... he was one of the worts players on the field we save money cut him ,we have replacements doing good (tuitt and haiward)

 

Then how are you not convinced that this team prefers to play DEs in the nickel instead of a DE and a NT? If they'll play Thomas over McLendon... There's no way it's about having the best players on the field, like you said.

And like I said, even when Casey was young and in his prime, he came off for nickel. DEs Smith and KVO stayed in. The difference was, we didn't use nickel as much, for unrelated reasons.

 

then we need to draft another de better than thomas ..would n't be difficult we already had mauro that was a lot better but by mistery cam thomas keep played

 

I hear there's this kid outa Notre Dame that might declare for the 2014 draft. Supposed to be a late first rounder, but we might be able to nab him in the 2nd.

 

I said "I" would, not that "They" would. And "They" moved to Arizona, and this could very well be part of the reason why.

 

Every year we needed online and CB's and we went elsewhere or waited until All the better caliber of players were gone in the draft. Every since coach Tomlin lost his shot at Revis...its been downhill for cb's for us.Draft after draft.Being that coach tomlin was a db coach before coming to us,...I thought our secondary would be great and when we got coach lakes, I was ecstatic....but we've experienced just the opposite..now onto the oline...how do you let all of those Alabama olinemen get pass your selection? Linebackers...we drafted two good ones under coach Tomlin....timmons and woodley....we missed out on hightower,upshaw,and mosely and loss a good to the steelers team on the west coast. Now,we're in a bad predicament?! Really?

 

On the surface our greatest needs are CB & OLB. That being said the game starts and ends on the line. Our OL under Munchak has improved greatly and it directly affected the offense in a great way.

I haven't done enough study of Shelton at this time but from my limited exposure and other experts praise of him he instantly help improve our defense. If he is indeed the next Ngata we may even be smart to trade up for him. We struggle greatly against the run the last several years. That hurts the whole defense by helping the opposing passing game as well.

You lock down the middle with a Ngata type guy that helps free up you DE's. That Will free up your ILB for defending the run and blitzes up the middle as well as helping the OLB because you now have 5 OL worried about 3 DL.

It also frees up McLendon so he can be a real solid Swing DL. I'd love to see McLendon at DE and watch him create havoc with his size/athleticism.

I just don't get how you guys don't get the importance of a stud NT in the 3-4 and since we're staying predominately 3-4 then NT becomes a bigger need than previously thought.

Cajun-

 

It's pretty glib to say we don't understand the importance of a NT in a 3-4. We're saying the value isn't there - the amount our team improves by turning a good NT into a possibly great one doesn't compare to the amount our team improves by turning our crappy/non-existent OLBs/CBs into possibly great ones.

There's only so much the dominoes can do. We need pressure from our OLBs. NT helps the DEs, DEs help the OLBs, (and then the OLBs help the CBs). The way they help, though, is by making matchups better. Drawing extra players, etc. But at the end of the day, your OLBs still have to win matchups one on one. Ngata or not, it's not like they'll be getting free runs at QBs and RBs. Until our OLBs are of a high enough caliber that they can apply pressure and get sacks one-on-one against OTs, the pressure won't come from the outside.

We understand how the dominoes fall, but if the last domino sucks, it doesn't make a difference. It's like having an awesome OL to give your QB time to throw. Hard for a QB to thrive when dudes are in his face all the time, right? So you want a great OL to help your QB. But if your QB isn't good enough, or isn't on the team, you are just spinning your wheels. By upgrading an already good OL (NT) instead of the QB you don't have (OLB, CB), you're not giving your team the value it needs. You're taking off a good player for a great one, and leaving all the crappy ones. It's technically help, but it's a wasted opportunity for much better help.

 

We need a great NT.

The blah blah blah is important

 

The OP was about drafting a NT in RD 1. Of course drafting one NT cannot compare turning you OLBers into great ones or CBs into great ones. You have one pick, one player and if that player is another Ngata the Value at #22 is Greater than any OLB or CB you're going to see in turns of what he'll do for improving this defense. JJ had a very good start to the season before his wrist dislocation. Moats showed promise. James is up in the air. Rd 2 will have good DE/OLB types. Rd 3 will have good CBs. You lock down and solidify the DL and coupled with our ILB shut down the run game it'll make defending pass easier. OLBer aren't solely responsible for pressuring the QB you know. How much better will Heyward be with a probowl NT in the middle. How about Tuitt?

It's my opinion and how I see things. The process has got to play itself out and maybe by the time the draft gets here Shelton won't be all that, or maybe he will be. But if he is the next Ngata and we don't draft him we'll be sorry.

Cajun-

 

i agree if there is a new ngata at 22 we pick him period....
but is shelton a ngata? and if yes he will not be there at 22

 

I didn't mean to suggest skipping Shelton would fix both OLB and all CB spots. I'm saying I'd rather fix one of those spots rather than upgrade McLendon, who I already consider a good starter for us.

I'm a Jarvis fan, and I expect him to improve too. But I don't ever see him as a good enough pass rusher to force consistent pressure against LTs, especially when we face so many good ones right here in our own division. He's got a lot of stuff to like - he's well-rounded, he's got good instincts - but I want to shift him over to LOLB and bring in more of a physical specimen type of guy on the right side. I like Moats, but I don't see the production coming from him, either. I'd like to retain him as the #3 guy.

Another thing, I guess I don't think as much of Ngata as you. Yes, he's been an All Pro 5 times. And he's always shown his best stuff against us, because he came around right when our OL imploded. But even looking at his draft (2006)... I still wouldn't take him! The way our team was built right now, I'd rather have Tamba Hali (#20) or Johnathan Joseph (#24). There were a number of other excellent players in that draft. It's not like Shelton is such a sure thing, and even if he was, it's not like he's the only one.

Check it out from this angle: We got Santonio Holmes (#26) from that draft. Never even made a Pro Bowl, and was off the team before his rookie contract ended because he was such a screw-up. But without him we don't win Super Bowl 43. Suppose The Almighty Ngata had been available at #26. We take him, and either play him over Smith or Hampton or Keisel, and don't get Holmes. Do we win that Super Bowl? Without even entering the debate about if Ngata is better than any of our three DL, let's just suppose he is - that means our run defense and pass rush are bolstered, but we suffer at WR, a position we were pretty thin at. I gotta say, although choosing Holmes over the better player Ngata might seem like a reach for need instead of taking the BPA, that would still be the better draft choice. He's a very good player where we were desperate for very good players. Ngata would have been just another cook in a kitchen full of good cooks. I like the BPA philosophy, and sometimes the word "need" can seem like a curse word on draft day. But it's not. It's about striking a balance. Reaching for need is often extremely stupid, but stubbornly sticking to your board regardless of what your roster looks like is just as stupid.

I think our DL is pretty close to locked down as it is. I like our three starters, and I like McCullers for depth. We just need a #3 DE, which we can find later in the draft or in FA. I know stopping the run helps to defend the pass, but it's not like teams can't just pass all over us anyway. We've seen it from great QBs and we've seen it from total scrubs. Even when one dimensional, if we don't have the CBs and we don't have the pass rush, teams can beat us without running the ball at all. I'd like to try stopping them directly (CB >> stop the pass) or somewhat indirectly (OLB >> rush the quarterback), rather than super-duper indirectly (NT >> better run defense >> force more passing >> easier for our crappy secondary to see it coming before they're picked apart).

 

LOL! Brilliant.

 

while I like Shelton a lot and davis too, I don't think it's as big of need as it would be a luxury pick for us this year. both will be good solid players but we have other needs that would mean more to us at this time. mac is solid and should get better actually. remember this was only really year two with much playing time. he has to stay healthy for us. McCullers will get better too. the power is there, the awareness needs to be added and some technique work.

 

I am the biggest detractor of the defensive line on this board for sure, but I don't think a NT is the way to go in round 1. I think we need to rebuild it, but I think we can do that with later round picks and maybe a free agent.

We most definitely need an OLB pass rush enthusiast in Round 1. There should have been no reason that James Harrison was our most dominate pass rusher last year (Worilds became better when teams had to account for Harrison, exactly the way Woodley looked good playing with Harrison). Assuming Worlids isnt back and Jones continues to suck, we literally have just Moats and MAYBE an older Harrison (which they really need to find a way to keep for one more year, even as depth).

An athletic CB and SS are also desperately needed, but we can't reach in the draft if they aren't there. We have had a really bad time drafting high round CBs in recent drafts.

I think they should do this. Draft only OLBs, CBs, and SS/FS in the draft. Take 3 OLBs and 4 DBS. At least one in each grouping SHOULD pan out. Don't waste picks on QBs/WRs/Ps/Ks/OL/ILB/DL....none of that. We have two weak positions on the team, draft all players there and we will find at least a decent player.

 

We have the athletic SS in Shamarko Thomas, entering his 3rd year. I have blind faith they intend to use him this year. I hope so, because I still like him and I'd hate to waste another draft pick. I'd much rather use one on a FS, so we have a guy ready to go in 2016 in case Mitchell sucks again this year and we have to cut him.

I'd be more than happy with 2 OLBs, 2 CBs, and a FS. That's 5. Then we'll probably have 3-4 more picks we can use on something like TE, DE, RB.

I don't mind drafting positions we're already stacked at, if it's a late-round pick and the guy presents good value. Drafting a WR in the 6th in 2010 seemed superfluous to me at the time (we'd just drafted Emmanuel Sanders earlier that day), but that's how you get Antonio Brown.

 

Why? Because Hampton was a 2 down guy. IF and I say if the reports on Shelton are accurate he's the perfect zero-tech in the 3-4 giving snack his 3rd DE (McClendon) but he's also projected as a 1-tech in the 4-3 which also gives us position flexibility and scheme versatility.

Snack- I totally get and understand everything you're saying. And yes, we differ on Ngata, I'd pee my britches if we could sign him, draft the top OLB in rd 1 then CB RD 2 & safety Rd 3.

I'm old school and prefer the 4-3 base. It's what got us the 4 rings in the greatest run in History. It's what defeated the previously undefeated pats with that great DL.

I stand by my point. IF Shelton is what they're projecting ( see Ngata ) and if he's there at 22 they better run to the podium and if they don't it'll be a great mistake.

CAJUN-

 

Agree 100%

 

That doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in the scouting dept, lol!! But I get the message. They definitely need to double dip at CB, I'll agree with you there.