Maryland CB Sean Davis

Well then clarify your statement. Which SS will be shutting down Reed? Thomas or Golden?

Hahaha.

Process of elimination.

 

Seems more like a process of reading comprehension failure

I never said anything about shutting down Reed. tweedle dum said "I have no issue with Davis matching up with Reed". A comment I laughed at since Reed is one of the best and most explosive TEs in the game

So you keep "inferring" and you keep "process of eliminating"... You're doing great.

 

So you don't think Davis can stop Reed and also don't think Thomas or Golden can stop Reed?

Hard to know since you refuse to clarify your position.

This is some pretty legendary fence sitting.

If you actually watch Golden in week 1 last year after he had 3 years in the system you might not be so sure he is the answer in week 1 2016.

Golden blew assignments and missed tackles.

The Steelers always wait to start rookies. In my opinion last year Boykin should have started over Blake and Golden should have started over Allen (though those two are pretty close).

Bottom line is Davis is the future at SS. Who cares if he starts week 1?! Big deal!

Steelers veteran SS 4 touchdowns to Patriots tight ends in week 1 2015 so... more of the same = victory?

 

I wish I could get excited about the Steelers first two picks, however, the Steelers' record regarding DB draft picks is abysmal. In the previous 10 drafts (2006-15) the Steelers had selected 14 DBs. Only William Gay is a starter. Only Thomas, Golson and Grant are still with the team. Injuries didn't allow for a good evaluation for Golson and Grant. One wonders if Thomas will be on the team by the first regular season game. Tomlin has more than once alluded to above the neck issues with Thomas. Below are the draft selections listed by year, round, and name. Granted Lewis was a player but moved on for $$$. Apparently the Steelers disagreed with how good a player he was for the money. Perhaps the person(s) who select WRs should teach a class on how to evaluate talent for those who select DBs. I did hear all the scouts look at all positions to save money. However, if Burns, Davis, Golson, and Grant wash out, the Steelers should consider employing or contracting with a specialist with a successful track record regarding DB evaluation.

2015 2 Golson, 4 Grant
2014 5 Richardson
2013 4 Thomas, 5 Hawthorne
2012 7 Frederick
2011 3 Brown, 4 Allen
2010 5 Butler
2009 3 Lewis, 5 Burnett
2008 6 Mundy
2007 5 Gay
2006 3 Smith

 

Good post LG, welcome aboard. It really puts it into perspective. Here is hoping Artie and Sean can change
that drafting record.

 

I'm sorry, you seem to be confused.
When someone creates a stupid narrative, I don't feel the need to choose a side. "Please choose whether you think a 2nd round rookie or a depth roster veteran can stop a pro bowl safety"

And we all know how important judging a player in his first start against a generational talent is

Do you think I put any stock in your opinion?

Hold the phone Dee....

Golden started week 1 or should have started?
Golden was so terrible in week 1, that he should have continued to start?

Try and keep your nonsense straight.

I care, I'm kind of in to winning football games early in the year.

And we all know that judging everything based on the first game of the year, after introducing new coverages that offseason and against the best TE... ever, is totally a logical approach to analysis

you're doing it wrong.... all of it.

 

Davis will be the starter in the majority of the games this season. And throughly entrenched by season's end heading into the playoffs. And that's all that matters.

 

RPO you just reiterated yet again that Davis will be a liability week 1. You just said it again.

But you also admit you are fence sitting. If you think that all 3 SS options are garbage why bother to comment at all?!

And yes I think Davis has a better chance against Gronkowski and top TEs based on the fact he is 6'1 with 21 bench reps. He is a strong player. He's not going to dive helplessly at the legs of large tight ends.

Yes. Golden failed week 1 last year. He blew assignments and missed tackles. So did Allen. You say I'm contradicting myself but I am not and the difference is age. Why didn't the Steelers start Golden more last year to see if he could be the starter this year and beyond? It isn't like Will Allen outplayed him by any real margin and only one of the two is still with the team.

You've already decided Golden (or Shamarko haha) is the only option at SS and the Steelers haven't been through camp yet!!! You just won't say it. You just state how dumb it would be to start a rookie as if the inverse was not starting veterans who gave up 996 yards receiving and 9 TDs to TEs last year.

Steelers were 20th in the NFL against TEs last year. There is room for improvement.

http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/stats/posvsdef/TE/all/avg/standard

And let me also state once again that the Steelers usually match ILBs or nickel backs against TEs. The SS will likely have other responsibilities if the TE is running routes over the middle or to the flat as TEs are prone to do.

My primary concern in starting a rookie SS would be Desean Jackson who is one of the best deep threats in the NFL.

You've set up the TE straw man to knock it down when it is only one part of the SS responsibilities.

 

You've made some valid points. But we can't be prisoners of the past. None of the guys you've shown were first round selections either. Meaning that Colbert really did his homework this off-season; you can tell by the way he and Tomlin went across the country looking at the different DB's that were in the draft. So because of their relentless due diligence, I think that they've finally got the pulse of what a good cornerback/safety really is.

 

Yes. But I really don't care if he was the starter in week 1. It doesn't make sense for people to pretend that Golden is an established veteran. Golden has started 3 games in 4 years.

A savvy Deshea Townsend he is not.

Golden is on the Steelers to provide depth and ST.

Davis likely will not start week 1. 99% of Steelers fans recognize that. That is the Steeler way. It doesn't mean it is right.

Ben didn't start his rookie year either. He went 13-0 after Maddox went down.

Did Ben having 13 regular season games and 2 playoff games under his belt help his development I wonder?

Would the Steelers have won Super Bowl XL if Ben hadn't played lights out to get them there and could he have done that as a rookie? Probably not.

If teams can start rookie QBs day 1 then I think the Steelers can start a rookie S day 1.

People complained the Steelers didn't take Marcus Peters last year but he would never have seen the field until week 10 or later and never would have made the Pro Bowl with the Steelers. Same goes for Darby who was the best rookie corner.

Darby started 15 games last year for the Bills and is already emerging as a shut down corner. On the Steelers he would be in year 2 of left bench.

"No rookie can ever start!" is a stupid mantra only repeated by Steelers fans who have been brainwashed by watching the same thing over and over for too long.

 

I looks at the points each person is making and I go "oh yeah he's got a good point. Ooh but look here this point is also valid."

Then I look at the broad subject of what all this discussion is about and wonder if I could be reading something better for my brain's development.

 

1. Tennessee and Tampa Bay both started rookie QBs last year and both played well. Luck and Bortles both started as rookies and both played much better in year 2.

I see zero evidence that it is dumb to start rookie QBs year one. That is how they improve for year two.

2. Peters other drawback is he was torched last year at Antwan Blake proportions. I bet he is better in year 2 though with all that experience. Kudos to KC for letting him fail in order to succeed.

Darby had a better rookie year than Revis.

3. That rookies should never start is a generalization not a straw man. A lot of people are saying that rookies should not start.

4. So you're saying Le'Veon Bell and Maurkice Pouncey are the only rookies who understood the playbook week 1 under Tomlin? And that no defensive rookie ever has?

There are a lot more factors than knowing the playbook in playing for the Steelers. Largely the willingness of the coaching staff to field individual mediocrity if the unit as a whole is acceptable.

5. We agree that assignments were blown last year in week 1. I understand that is a major issue.

What was also a major issue last year was tackling and specifically Blake, Allen and Golden being in the right spot but taking a bad angle or making a bad tackle and the receivers racking up huge yards after the catch.

Sean Davis is a better match athletically game 1.

Steelers were 24th in YAC allowed last year with 2015. In 2010 they were 3rd.

2,015 YAC allowed according to Sporting Charts. 125 YPG.

 

Golden was so well thought of that the FO ran out and took a safety in the second round. That's how good they feel about Golden. Speaks for itself. The majority of guys we had in our secondary before the draft were either cornballs or hobbits or both.

 

I reiterated that Davis is a rookie, and Reed is top tier. I get that you wish I was saying what you want, but it's simply not the case. You're operating within a dumb narrative, I am pointing out that it's dumb.

Nope. Try again.

Golden did 19 reps, does that change your opinion? I hope not, because using a height argument or bench reps arguments in the context of defending Gronkowski is hilariously stupid. I mean... are you trying to win worst argument of the week?

PS i get that youre entire argument is based on a 6 play highlight video. But the "diving at Gronks legs" argument has nothing to do with Golden's height or strength. It has to do with the playcall/alignment not being ready at the snap.

The irony here... is that the answer to this question, is the same reason why Davis won't be starting week 1.

Yes. I've said plenty of times that Davis won't start week 1.

Will Allen is gone. A healthy Shazier and improved pass rush will also help.

Tweedle Dum introduced the "Davis will match up with Reed" narrative. Try to keep up.

Your primary concern should be that Davis played CB for most of last season, your second concern should be around his limited exposure to complex NFL coverages, dictated by formations and alignments. Maybe you enjoyed the confusion in week 1 last year, and would like to replicate it with even less experience at the position on the field week 1 this year.

I didn't set up the TE straw man. As I've pointed out to you 4 times now.

 

None of these examples are relevant even remotely in a conversation about Davis. The only way these examples are relevant is if you remove their names, their positions, their talent level, the systems they played in, and their experience levels.... and just generically said, "look rookies started!"... oh wait, that's essentially your argument

 

RPO...

"And if need be, I'm not afraid of allowing Davis to match up on their TE Reed."

That is what Dean said. "If need be..."

He hardly said that Davis would be a good matchup or even would do well against Reed.

Then you took that simple statement, called him "Tweedle Dum" and blew it out of proportion.

You listed all of Reed's stats and talked up the Redskins 17th best offense.

Truth is the Steelers very well might try to play Davis in the "big nickel" role against TEs, or he will play SS at times and the TE will be less of a responsibility.

Either way you are pretending that Golden or Thomas are somehow better options to guard Reed specifically when they are not.

Golden may be less of a liability to miss assignments this year but last year he was not.

Davis may be more of a liability to miss assignments overall and in general but not against Reed specifically.

You took a small throw away remark then magnified it ten times to attack it.

 

If you wanted to engage honestly you would acknowledge the examples I gave were specific to comments Blast made.

He said it was a mistake to start rookie QBs.

As far as the DBs go I pointed out the 2 rookie corners who played at a Pro Bowl level last year.

I'm not saying that Davis will be a Pro Bowler. I am saying those two corners would not have been ProBowlers on the Steelers.

They would have watched Blake miss tackle after tackle the same as everyone else because Blake had the advantage of experience in the system.

You can go on and on about experience and how difficult the system is to learn in Pittsburgh but the reality is the secondary that was fielded last year was not athletic enough to execute the schemes.

Here comes the RPO counter argument... Pick out a small thing I said and twist it up and knock it down without ever acknowledging how bad the veteran SS play was last year.

Keep ignoring the poor veteran SS play. That is the only way you can win the argument in your own mind.

 

Why is everyone afraid to shake up the 30th ranked secondary?

I don't get it.

 

If you wanted to engage honestly you'd acknowledge that starting rookies is a case by case issue, and spouting off examples is totally pointless

And that has **** all to do with Sean Davis

Apparently you have an alternate history crystal ball

Would they? Cockrell saw more and more snaps over the course of the season, and he's not half the talent that Peters/Darby are.

I seriously doubt you even comprehend the schemes, but that's a different story

The play at OLB was terrible in 2014 and Dupree didn't start week 1 in 2015. Poor SS play in 2015 has nothing to do with Davis starting/not starting.

Either way, your position is a mixture of what you think actually happens and what you wish would happen, making it a confusing mess of nonsense. It's like your TE argument. It started with "look how many yards we gave up to TEs!!!" and ended with "But the SS is not usually covering the TE!!!".

"The Steelers DON'T start rookie!!! Sean Davis is going to start!

The reason your narrative ends up all over the place and contradictory is because you start with your chosen conclusion, and work your way backwards through the evidence.

I don't think Sean Davis is remotely ready to start at SS in an NFL defense. I've given reasons why (experience, college system, a year at CB, exposure to pro style offenses, etc). You've given no reason to believe Davis will be capable/ready to start other than saying "Look at the 5 plays vs New England".

Shall I post Davis missed tackles vs Ohio St and pretend that's a convincing argument?

 

Yes, if need be... you should absolutely be "afraid" of matching up a rookie with a pro bowler. Tweedle Dum
Yes, it was Tweedle-dumish to make the statements he made about the Washington Offense, especially their near top of the league oline and Kirk Cousins who put up metrics among the best QBs in the league.

Please try to separate using the word "truth" when speculating.

Golden, Thomas, and any other experienced veteran is a better option to start over any inexperienced, non-elite, rookie, who is coming in having not played the position in over 12 months.

You're catching on...

it's starting to click...

It wasn't a throwaway remark. It was the basis for the argument tweedle dum made for why Davis should start.

Dean:

I refuted each of these:
1. Will Allen, the SS from last year's "30th ranked secondary"... Is not an option.
2. Cousin had an excellent season
3. The Washington Oline is one of the best in the league
4. Jordan Reed is one of the best in the league.

 

Will Allen is not returning
Antwon Blake is not returning
Cortez Allen is not returning
Brandon Boykin is not returning

The secondary is being shaken up, no one is afraid of shaking up the secondary. But you should be concerned about starting an inexperienced rookie at SS who played cornerback last year at a program that's produced maybe 3 decent NFL DBs in the last 20 years.

I'm going to be excited as hell when Sean Davis proves he can start in the NFL. But, having that expectation that he'll start, because you've got the warm fuzzies over a draft pick, is stupid..... and let's be honest, you guys who are pro-Davis starting, would be making the SAME argument if we drafted Vonn Bell, or Justin Simmons, or Darian Thompson, or the list goes on. There's no analysis here. You arugment is "Steeler Pass D Bad, Rookie Awesome". I mean really... you can just post "Hodor" going forward.