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Line backers

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by mac daddyo, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Did you see me mention Edmunds? No. You did not. I'm debunking the idea that Matakevich is comparable in talent to a guy who was taken in the second round and earned All-Pro honors as a rookie. It's silly.

    Also, I wasn't the one who brought up Leonard. If you have an issue with somebody bringing up his name, take it up with that poster, not me. Thank you.
     
  2. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    I also said I understand the 40 time isn't the only measuring stick. You said red lacks quickness and I explained to you that they both posted 4.50 short shuttle times, which shows quickness and movement. Again no difference in the two. One plays in a 4-3 and one plays in a 3-4 so scheme does play a part. Every other number on them coming into the league was nearly identical. Coaching and scheme is a difference in them. No it's not silly. :cool:
     
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  3. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I didn't see you mention the shuttle time. Maybe you did. I really don't care enough to look it up. I'd like to see you provide evidence for that number.

    That said, what I've seen of Matakevich is a guy who is painfully slow getting to the ball when he plays defense. Leonard has no such problem. I was being kind when I wrote that your claim that the only difference between the two is coaching and scheme is silly. Leonard was rated much higher coming out of college, which is why he went in the second round and Matkevich went in the seventh. To claim that Matkevich could do what an All-Pro can do if he had the same coaches is ludicrous.
     
  4. Daddymac10

    Daddymac10 Well-Known Member

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    As far as I'm concerned, Ulysses Gilbert & Sutton Smith has to be ILB's because they're too small to be OLB's. Gain 10 or 15lbs then maybe...
     
  5. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Gilbert is going to play inside for the steelers.:cool:
     
  6. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    If they both make the team, wouldn't that mean Matakevich ends up being cut? Then he could get the coaching he needs to be an All-Pro!:lolol:
     
  7. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Maybe:cool:
     
  8. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    For an educator you don't read well scribe. I didn't claim that at all.

    I did claim their numbers in speed and production in college were near identical and they are.

    The scheme they play in is different too. That's a fact as well.

    You said matakevich could take no more steps forward as a player, I was asking for your thoughts on why is that when everything else was so identical about them coming into the league.

    I never claimed once that matakevich would be an all pro but that our coaching didn't give him the tools needed to take a step forward to even be a good backup. With everything else being equal. Matakevich was known coming out to have good diagnosing skills and football iq. What else is the difference to make one an all pro and one not capable.

    there was plenty of doubts about Leonard's skills coming out of college. One coach saw something in him and also turned a whole defense around for a team. One has made our defense and LB core take a step back. That's a pretty good reason to suspect that coaching has so much to do with it if all the rest of the numbers were the same. The scheme, 3-4 to 4-3 is the other difference.

    I'm thinking maybe it's not our players that are that bad but the coaching of those players, namely Keith butler that is the difference.

    so to make it clear I never said, nor was I saying matakevich was leonard. Just that everything being equal production could be better then we have seen here so far. Maybe a change of scenery would be a good move for him or a change of scenery of our coach would be better.

    red is by far our most productive STs player. Butler doesn't coach that.

    just wanting to clear this all up for you before you start claiming and twisting words into something else. I try to keep conversation with you civil and I hope it can continue as such. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions you had about this subject. :smiley1::cool:
     
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  9. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I do hope others will notice that you began this post with an insult, one based in a false claim. Even if I had misread your post, which I didn't, generalizing that to claim that I don't read well at all is an insult. There is nothing civil about that. Your posts absolutely made that implication. Now that it has been exposed as ridiculous, you are backing away. That is not even close to the same thing as me misreading your post. If you don't want to be honest about the implications of your post, that is on you.

    Leonard was a second round pick. He was rated ahead of other first-rounders, including one I will not mention here, on many draft boards. It wasn't just one coach who saw something in him. He was far more highly-regarded coming out of college than Matkevich and it shows in when they were drafted. Leonard was a second-rounder. Matakevich was a seventh-rounder.

    You still haven't provided evidence for your claim that their shuttle times were similar. (I forget exactly how you worded it.)

    The bottom line is that one player is an All-Pro and the other would be out of the league by now if not for special teams. To say that is only about coaching is ridiculous.

    Regarding Butler, to a point, we agree. I think he is a terrible defensive coordinator and I've said many times that he should have been fired after the 2017 season. I just think you are going too far in saying that he is so bad that he is the difference between an individual player, Matakevich, being an All-Pro and a scrub.

    Please note that unlike you, I am keeping this civil.
     
  10. turtle

    turtle

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    During draft evals, I thought Gilbert would best fit as a 4-3 Will for that reason, but I think he would make a good dimebacker here. To be honest, I think it was more of a STs pick than for LBer.

    Sutton Smith (6' 232) is the same size as Bush (5'11" 234) and Gilbert (6' 230) so I am also wondering about his OLB role.
     
  11. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    http://draftanalyst.com/pro-day-march-23-wyoming-michigan-texas-tech

    https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/film-review-darius-leonard-the-good-and-the-bad

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/tyler-matakevich?id=2555171






    matakevich at his pro day even did better than leonard in his short shuttle. heres your proof. maybe i should have said reading comprehension. you dont comprehend well what you read from others.

    for you to claim there is no step for matakevich to take is a pretty bold statement when in fact it happens all the time to players.:cool:
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  12. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for backing up your claim. The fact still remains that based on his overall skills, Matakevich was taken in the seventh round despite his productive college career. Leonard was taken in the second even though he played at a small college. Clearly, Leonard had vastly superior upside to Matakevich and their play as pros has only backed up that conclusion.

    Regarding Matakevich, on a team that has had a significant need for inside linebackers since the Shazier injury, he has made one start. They picked up what was left of Spence off the scrap heap rather than start him. He made the team last year due to his ability on special teams.

    Look at the resources the Steelers put into the inside linebacker position. They signed a free agent. They paid a heavy price to move up to draft one, then took another, Grant. There has also been a good deal of speculation that Sutton Smith will move inside as a pro. Throw in Vince Williams, who is also clearly ahead of Matakevich on the depth chart, and it is quite clear that the Steelers don't think much of Matakevich's upside as a pro inside linebacker. So you have the whole league being so disinterested that he lasted until the seventh round, you have his inability to grasp the opportunity when the team had a desperate need and you have his team's clear lack of faith in the guy.

    Yet despite your false claims to the contrary, you suggested he could be an All-Pro with the right coaching an scheme. I understood your post just fine. I also see through your backtracking. You also seem to be failing in your attempt to keep things civil.

    Rather than make a false and insulting generalization about you the way you did about me, I'll simply suggest that your analysis in this particular case is way off.
     
  13. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't so hard was it? The first part of this response was a nice discussion. That's all I was trying to have with you.

    Never once did I suggest matakevich would be an all pro. I was simply disputing your claim he didn't have any steps left to take. There has been no back tracking about that.

    Gilbert not grant is the draft pick by the way.

    All these failures you have shown and the fact we keep trying to find a replacement seems to back up my theory that our coaching is the part that is lacking. We ended the season last year with a life long special teams starting and out playing the starter.

    I also think back to a special teams that was cut many times and when he was finally given the chance to start, even though butler didn't want him to, he became dpoy. No that doesn't mean I am saying matakevich will become dpoy now. Before you start saying that's what I am claiming.

    Red had 29 special team tackles last year. The next closest player had 19. The kid has some talent. All I was trying to show was he had very similar numbers coming out of college to a guy that became an all pro. Our coaching misses out on some talented players and they don't seem to have the ability to bring those players along very well.

    Claiming they have no more steps to take makes you sound like Keith butler, when there is some talent that is not being brought out. I don't think butler is getting the most out of what we have and we keep bringing in more to try to make him look competent. Vince still playing shows how stubborn he is. Fort should have been kept over vince. Fort at least had some speed and talent as well as good special team ability. Again a failure of this staff to see some talent right under their noses.

    My apologies for any attacks on you. I would much rather we keep this in discussion form. I do like reading some of your posts, even if I don't agree fully. :cool:
     
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  14. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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  15. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Apology accepted. My posts have been civil from the start of this discussion. I'm glad you are finally doing the same.

    To be clear, when you suggest that the only differences between an All-Pro (Leonard) and a scrub/special teamer (Matakevich) are coaching and opportunity, you are suggesting the latter can be an All-Pro. Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but that is what logically follows from your posts.

    And yes, I messed up on the late-round linebacker draft pick's last name. My bad.

    I never questioned the argument that the coaching staff is part of the problem with players failing to develop. When you look at high draft picks like Artie Burns regressing and failing, it is worth looking at the coaches.

    Matakevich is a different story. The guy was a seventh-round pick for a reason. If a seventh-round pick never becomes anything more than a backup and special teamer, that's not a failure by the coaching staff. That is a marginal player doing marginal things. That he excels on special teams doesn't mean he has the ability to be a starter on defense. He couldn't beat out Fort, who is either a very good backup or a below-average starter. He couldn't beat out Williams, who is average at best. Everything from his draft status to his inability to win playing time at a very weak position for the Steelers has proven that Matakevich is a scrub who would have already been forced to get on with his life's work if not for special teams.
     
  16. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    I am excited to see this LB competition and would hope I see
    new faces to root for. Certain players have had their chances ( Bud) (Dirty Red)(Chickalo), I want
    to see what somebody else can do. If the Steeler coaching staff will let it happen? As I have mentioned
    in other threads (Sutton) (the 2 Allen's)(Hawkins)(Mccullers)(Artie Burns)(bozwell,) (Berry)
    it is time for a decision to be made regarding these players. I am hoping the Steelers can get something
    in return for these players. I am not so sure that MT and the existing coaching staff can
    make these hard decisions.
     
  17. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Not much you can get for that group. Too much money tied up in boz. Hawkins is done I think. Too much competition for him. Mccullers goes nowhere. 2 new coaches for the dbs. I think sutton, Brian Allen could be actually used more in the back-up free safety role that they had been tinkering with. Namely sutton. Brian Allen has worth as a gunner but may be in direct competition with artie for a backup role. Marcus allen, berry, Hawkins could be out easily. Berry would be some money savings that we need.:cool:
     
  18. CK 13

    CK 13 Well-Known Member

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    A ham sandwich could supplant Dupree. Hopefully Ola gets to shine. But like said Colbert and Tomlin are betting 9.2 on this below average player.

    Vince Williams will be a solid back up and used in sub packages.

    Devin Bush will solidify a major position of need.

    TJ Watt will have to fight through double teams but he is used to it. No need to rush him back get that hammy right.

    The real issue is Butler/Tomlin. Who the hell is really calling the shots for the defense?
     
  19. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    Supposedly MT took over the defense last year. And it showed.
     
  20. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    In duprees camp interview he is going to bring it on this year to get a big contract, of course talk is only that, he hasnt shown anything yet, but this year will tell the truth not his speculation on how great he is going to be:

    https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/steelers-bud-dupree-relaxed-entering-contract-year-072819
     
  21. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    People fell in love with his measurables. I like to see football players that know the game
    and know how to produce. He has never produced for the amount of money the Steelers have paid him.
     

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