Legit question. How many people who want Tomlin gone also think Pickett is the answer at QB?

I dont think by saying "we played against their 2nd stringers " implies that every player that played was 2nd string, but if you know football as well as you think you do, you would know that even if they played 2-4 players each on offense and defense that comprised of 2nd stringers, that they greatly enhanced our chances of winning with our starters. Its not that hard to figure out.

 

Ok, but You made it sound like everyone on the field was 2nd string. Also because of injuries....how many wnd string, 3rd string, and below that....players off the couch did we have to play on our team???

 

Which is the widest range possible. You’re open to “entertaining” pretty much anyone in replacement of Tomlin. I don’t know why you’re trying to run from that when you’re the one who’s said it.

You're so busy trying to run from and spin what you’ve said and the position that you’ve taken, that it’s deflecting from the actual debate. This isn’t about me putting words in your mouth or accusing you of things you haven’t said. This is about me disagreeing with and challenging your position that it would be ok for the Steelers to fire Tomlin and replace him with either an unproven guy with no head coaching experience or a recycled guy who’s not done as well with another team as Tomlin has done with the Steelers. It’s not a misunderstanding, I Do Not Agree. I think your position is stupid. The Steelers making a “coaching shakeup” to replace Tomlin with a lesser guy or gamble on an unproven guy with no head coaching experience would be a dumb move. You make the gamble on a recycled guy or an up and comer when you have to, not when you’ve already got one of the best coaches in the league still in his prime already installed.

You’ve just illustrated why I say that these Tomlin discussions are never had in good faith because so many Steelers fans have a personal bias against the man. Every discussion about Tomlin reverts back to people whining about and scapegoating him for the “killer b” years. The “franchise qb” that those teams were built around gets a complete pass for being mediocre in the playoffs and it’s all Tomlin’s fault. It’s BS. Let’s run the post ‘10 SB appearance back real quick:

‘11- Eliminated by the Broncos. Yea the defense had a let down but Ben was incapable of picking up the slack. He was outplayed by Tebow.

‘12&’13 were back to back 8-8 rebuild seasons

‘14-Home wildcard loss to the Ravens. Ben throws 1td and 2 ints and is outplayed by Flacco.

‘15-bad luck season. They win a wildcard game but go into the divisional game against the Broncos without AB, Leveon, and Deangelo. Despite that they still had a shot against Denver but Ben couldn’t outplay the ghost of Peyton Manning. Throws no td passes and they only manage 16 points.

‘16 They manage to reach the conference championship game despite Ben’s mediocre play. Brady and the pats end the run with Ben obviously being outplayed.

‘17-This is the year of the 42-45 playoff loss to Bortles and the Jags. Ben and the offense came out flat including a terrible pick deep inside their own territory which helps the jags jump out early. Ben and the offense is incapable of winning the shootout.

‘18&’19 no playoffs

‘20- Eliminated by Mayfield and the Browns. Ben throws 3 first half picks digging the team in a 28-0 1st qtr hole that he can’t get them out of in a shootout.

I don’t put the losses solely on Ben but my point is to illustrate that the whole “underachieving” tag that Tomlin haters try to pin on him is more fitting for #7. Yall want to use Ben and his hall of fame status to paint Tomlin as an underachiever but the reality is Ben didn’t play like a hall of famer in the playoffs. He had 23 playoff games and only 34 tds(28 ints). Thats not elite, it’s mediocre. Subpar even. Between ‘11-20 the Steelers were eliminated from the playoffs 6 times. They scored under 20 in their elimination games 3 years in a row(‘14-16) and 23 points once(‘11). Even in the 2 games that they scored 30+, Ben still had a big role to play in the losses because his turnovers in those games helped the other team’s offensive explosions.

Your position on Tomlin is based on a BS premise. Coaching wasn’t the main reason the team never truly contended for titles while Ben was the “franchise qb”. It was the fact that their franchise qb who they paid to carry the team, played average to below in the playoffs when it counted the most. Now they had bad luck during that stretch but the main reason for the lack of postseason success is that the team was built to be carried by the offense, but Ben and his crew wasn’t up to it. Don’t blame the OCs and their schemes/plays either. Those were the same schemes and plays that helped Ben have multiple 6 td perfect passer rating games. Never saw any 6 td perfect qb rating games in the playoffs though did we? Ben rarely had playoff games where he had 2 tds. At his best, Ben was a game manager and the team only contended when he was kept in that role.

You’ve revised history to scapegoat Tomlin and convince yourself that he cant possibly lead the team back to title contention to justify your hate. In reality tho, this team is t that far away even with have arguably the worst qb play in the league. Another draft like last years and with just average qb play, this team is a threat to beat any team in the league.

 

KP was not handed the job as a rookie. KP also earned the job the way he executed the offense in preseason.

KP is in his 2nd season. The Steelers are correct not to give up on a former 1st round QB quickly.

 

Advocating for 3 potential people (2 new and 1 previous) is hardly "open to entertaining anyone"

I'm not busy running from or spinning what I said. The whole conversation took this turn because you told me what my words mean, then I told you they didn't mean that. You took them out of context to PROVE that they mean what you want them to, I then defended my own stance by posting the words I wrote verbatim... yet you still are telling me that my words mean something other than what I said. Now you're accusing me of running and spinning, when literally the whole back and forth is me just telling you that my words mean what I wrote (and not what you read into them). I am not arguing about whether or not you agree. You clearly don't, and that is your prerogative. The only issues I have taken with you is your blatant misrepresentation of my words, then using that as a basis to personally insult me.

It is a fine opinion to not want to risk a new coach when we have an NFL capable coach already. Not every coach works out (most don't) but to sit there and insult me personally because I'd rather take that chance now than ride out a coach I believe is past his time in the league is ridiculous. I'm fed up with the "ism's", the yearly poor personnel decisions, the challenges (or missed opportunities to win one), the time management, the yearly 3 game L streaks, the yearly games dropped to far inferior opponents. This team just looks like a dinosaur out there because it is run by one. I believe that Tomlin will be in the Hall of Fame. But I also believe that he will end his career with 1 Super Bowl win. We can move into the modern era of football with someone at the helm that understands and lives/breathes the modern game, not a Tampa 2 guru when the league has already figured it out. I have valid reasons for wanting this just like your reasons for wanting to stick with the one we have because we know what we have in him and we don't with someone new.

And yeah, Ben takes some of the blame for playoff losses too. I am fine with you completely absolving Tomlin of his role in the losses as long as you're willing to absolve him his role in winning the SB too. If losing was all on Ben, then Tomlin had no stake in the SB win either. Both share blame, or only one does... but if its one, then that guy gets the props for the good alongside the blame for the bad. But the REAL reason why everyone keeps pointing to this is because this garbage happens EVERY year. Not just those games. We ALWAYS come out in at least one game per year completely unprepared to play football against inferior opponents. It's happened multiple times in the playoffs (Denver, Cincy, Jax, Cleveland), but it happens EVERY year in the regular season. This year it's back to back 2 win teams, the year before it was coming off a big win in Cincy to drop the next two at home vs not good teams, the year prior its not beating the winless lions, the year before its losing the undefeated streak to a bad Washington team, 2018 its 3-10 Oakland, 2017 its Mike Glennon's Bears... its just always something. So its less about the losses and just the WAY we do it. In typical fashion against teams we are significantly better than. Just completely unprepared, flat, no passion... just like the year before and the many before that.

I've said this team is a QB away from contending all year. I think we are close. It doesn't change my opinion on the coaching situation. This team should be good with Tomlin at the helm and it should be good if someone else was too.

 

until they lose in the 1st round again

 

You literally said that you’d be open to the team entertaining Schwartz as a possible replacement if Tomlin were to be fired. If you’d be ok with him being “entertained” then you’d be ok with pretty much anyone.

Who are some known names that you wouldn’t be ok with, and how how are they any worst than Schwartz?

This discussion hasn’t really taken any turns. I’ve said over and over that discussions about Tomlin are never had in good faith because his haters are full of it. This is exactly how these discussions always go because when you call Tomlin haters out and expose them, they start trolling, lying, and trying to spin/revise history. You’ve followed that same script.

You said that you’d be ok with entertaining guys to replace Tomlin that have no experience and/or guys who have failed with other teams. That range of potential candidates includes everybody.

I haven’t insulted you PERSONALLY but don’t get sensitive now. Y’all have no qualms with insulting Tomlin. People trash Tomlin with no Fs given day in and out. The way he’s painted as incompetent is highly insulting. It’s also ironic because much of the whining about Tomlin is due to the incompetence and unintelligence of his detractors.

Look at how casual you are with insulting Tomlin. You have no hesitation with painting Tomlin as a dinosaur who has lost touch and been figured out by the league. It’s highly insulting but more importantly, it’s complete BS. You haven’t been in one meeting and haven’t spent one day in the locker room or on the sideline. I doubt that any of you even have access to the all 22 of these games. It’s the arrogance plus the ignorance. Let’s look at some facts for proper perspective.

The Steelers are 6th in points allowed(better than the browns) despite the rash of injuries that has left them to rely on practice squad guys and others off of the street to fill key roles. They’ve either given up the least or the 2nd least amount of points in the 4th qtr. They’ve also won 17 straight games while leading at any point in the 4th qtr. Those are facts, not opinions. Let people like you tell it though, and Tomlin is a dinosaur who has been passed by and figured out. Somehow he’s not good at strategizing, the Xs and Os, or making adjustments.

This team is also the 6th least penalized(while losing Minkah, their top 2 inside LBs and firing their OC mid season) and #2 team in turnover margin. Let people here tell it, Tomlin’s teams are undisciplined and unprepared.

This team is 9-2 in their last 11 1-score games but people swear that Tomlin is bad at clock management.

A lot of the Tomlin whining is just you guys bumping your gums about things you seemingly don’t understand. Cherry picking the mistakes while ignoring the overall picture.

Point flew right over your head. I wasn’t absolving Tomlin of all blame. I even made it a point to say that I wasn’t solely blaming Ben. The point was to refute the position that Tomlin is an underachiever because the team didn’t win rings post ‘10. The argument goes:

“Tomlin had a hall of fame qb and a stacked team, they should’ve won more”.

I simply illustrated that Ben didn’t play like a hall of fame qb in the playoffs when he was being paid and expected to do so. By ‘14 the team was his and they were only going to go as far as he and that offense could take them. It was what it was. They got eliminated from the playoffs 3 straight years(‘14-16) in games where they failed to score 20 points(17,16,17). Ben got the money and the weapons, but when it counted the most in the playoffs he was usually mediocre. I don’t blame any one person moreso than I chalk it up to just not being good enough. The decision to redesign the team to be led by Ben and the offense instead of the defense, didn’t work like we all hoped. Teams that folk thought could average 30 were being eliminated while scoring less than 20.

Its not “everybody” though. You’re amongst a contingent of anti Tomlin Steelers fans. Most don’t share you all’s narrow minded perspective on Tomlin. This is why there’s such a disconnect between Steelers fans and fans outside of the fan base. Fans outside of the base don’t have a personal agenda when it comes to Tomlin and they just judge him on football.

Nobody likes 3 losing streaks but how can you blame Tomlin for the losing streaks but give him no credit for withstanding them without losing the players and the locker room? Teams coached by lesser guys tend to fold and give up during such streaks. The reality is that this team has made the playoffs 3/4 seasons despite having 3 game losing streaks. Tomlin builds strong minded resilient teams that don’t give up and rally behind him.

Another reality is that this roster/team isn’t significantly better than anybody and has been for bout 4-5 years. This is the same team that was out gained by their first 10 opponents. The same team that was out gained by a DTR led Browns team. The margin for error is razor thin and has been for years. The reason that they’ve kept their heads above water despite having an average to below average roster is due to good coaching. You want to blame Tomlin for losses to the cards and pats while acting like it was expected of them to beat the Ravens with Lamar or go out to the west coast and beat the rams and Seahawks. They won games that folk didn’t believe they’d win and lost some that people thought that they would. End of the day they overachieved this year. They were predicted to finish last and not make the playoffs. That prediction was even made before it was known that they’d fire their OC and have to rely on Mason.

These 2 beliefs don’t reconcile. The fact that you can concede that even you believe that they are close to being back to title contention and are just a viable qb away in only year 2 post-Ben yet still keep the opinion that Tomlin should be replaced, proves that it’s a personal bias. People like you don’t want to see the team win under Tomlin.

 

He wasn’t handed the job

Mitch played so poorly that Kenny just fell into it

And it’s looking like a possibility that Rudolph should have been used

 

I literally didn't. This part of the conversation is done. I can't keep you from reading things into my words that aren't there and no matter what I say, you continue to do so. We're at an impasse here, so I am good being done with this part.

There are plenty of coaches that have been fired that I wouldn't be okay with, but there are too many to name. Would you want Belichick or McDaniels? Staley or Reich? No. But there are plenty more that I wouldn't want. Just because there is a guy or two I'd be fine with if we decided to move on from Tomlin doesn't mean I'd take anyone. None of what I've said has changed or flipped. The only defense I've stated is literally re-posting my words verbatim. Nothing really to see here other than your assertion is wrong.

I think the phrase "I don’t think that (you're*) smart enough to comprehend what you’re saying from your own mouth" constitutes a personal insult/attack. I don't care if you insult me or not, but don't act like you didn't. And I'm not personally insulting Tomlin. I listed a very viable list of things that concern me about his future as a successful coach. They are all based off factual evidence.

The phrases "Tomlin had a stacked team and HOF QB, therefore he should've won more" and "Ben didn't play like a HOF QB in the playoffs towards the end of his career" can both be true. Ben not playing as well has just as much to do with game-planning as it does his own personal performance. I don't know why this point is hard to grasp. Tomlin and Ben BOTH could have underperformed to their own standards... We also SHOULDN'T have needed a HOF performance to beat Tebow, Mayfield, and Bortles. In both the Jacksonville and Cleveland games there were players on the team making public statements about overlooking their opponent. This doesn't happen if your coach has you locked in. It just doesn't. It shows an overall lack of respect for the opponent from the coaching staff and team, and when the performances saw us down 21-0 and 28-0, it is a fair belief to think that the coaching staff just straight overlooked inferior opponents and we lost because of it.

The losing streak thing is infuriating, yes. Its great that we turn it around and push through, but why do they happen in the first place? If it was a year or two, then it could be just a fluke... but its been 6 straight years and spanned multiple QB's/Coordinators/teams. Its more than just a fluke, its a problem. Tomlin should get just as much ire for having them happen as he does for keeping the team together when they do.

Yes they do go reconcile. This team would be a QB away from contending no matter who the coach was. This roster is good. It just is. The QB position isn't. Maybe if we had an offensive mind in here things could change offensively? Instead we get Fichtner, Canada, and now Faulkner (who I assume we will just blindly hire as OC in the offseason *hope I'm wrong*) leading their last NFL offense in their careers. Tomlin is not an offensive mind. He also can't seem to get one to come here and coach our offense. If we had say, Ben Johnson or Bobby Slovik, come in and take the team over (if Tomlin leaves), we wouldn't have a reasonable expectation to improve offensively? It happens all across the league. Some flame out, but some work. I'd love to see us try.