Jarvis showed up!

He played the most snaps for an OLB against Cleveland. More than double Chick did. The coaches are trying to keep everyone fresh.

 

Going against an all pro tackle

 

It all depends in how they are valuing the numbers TTF. In order for the discussion to move forward I need some frame of reference in order to understand their thought process. If you look at just Jarvis's numbers 2 tackles and 1 sack then yes that would not be that impressive. However if we compare them to what the other three players that lined up at OLB did where do they fall? The inevitable would then happen where it will be said that Moats and Chick aren't 1st rounders. Which is why I want to know how they weight that because then we are looking at production based on draft position hence my formula draft position being x and thus yielding a production level of y. If that is the case then we need to look at the draft position of other players on defense as it pertains to production. If Jarvis at being picked 17th in the first has numbers comparable to Tuitt who was a mid 2nd round pick and no body is disputing he had a good day then there seems to be something of a problem in how they are weighting those expectations.

All this seems silly in light of the fact that they shut down the run so very few tackles to go around for the front seven and only sacked JM six times. So I would expect the MLB's to have a higher majority of the tackles, with DB's being the highest and the OLB and DL being lower. SO in order for Jones to have had a higher number of tackles he would have had to have dropped into coverage more. Which would cause people to attack his stats for pass rushing since if you are in coverage you aren't blitzing the QB.

Does that help or am I talking in circles? it feels like I am

 

In all fairness it's not always the numbers that make the season. He sets the edge pretty well against the run, and has gotten some solid pressure even without getting to the QB. He has also been in the right place at the right time for some fumble recoveries.

If you are comparing him to a "first round player" (as in pro bowl player), then you will always be disappointed. He's not going to be that player. However he can still be a solid option at OLB for us. He is an average starter IMO. We can always look to replace him, but he isn't a bad player and won't cost us much money to keep. We better get a budget in mind at some positions because it will be tough to afford AB, Bryant, and Bell all at the same time (and that is definitely what we should be trying to do)

 

I think Jones is a solid player that still has some growing to do. He's about right in the middle between what you want from a #17 overall pick (dynamic starter) and what you don't want (a bust). He's just a solid OLB at this point in his career while people are expecting domination. Personally I think he's still climbing the ladder up and I hope we sign him to a reasonable second contract. It would be a mistake if we kicked him to the curb.

 

Jones won't play the whole game and neither will any of the other OLBs, Joey Porter wants to keep them from getting worn down.

 

Totally agree. We need to figure out which position we go "budget" on so we can afford our playmakers that make our team a contender. We can't just throw a bunch of money and/or top picks at a certain position because one of our first round picks only turned out to be a solid starter instead of a superstar.

This is my reasoning behind being okay with Foster, and Jones, and Moats, Gay, Cockrell and others. We need to have either a solid vet who is on the cheaper side (Gay, Foster) or a guy on a rookie contract starting in some spots on our roster if we want Bell, Brown, and Bryant staying in the black and gold. Tuitt and Decastro won't be cheap either.

Unfortunately that means Heath won't be around much longer. Deebo out too. Maybe we don't resign Beachum. We will axe C. Allen. We might need to make a tough call on Timmons. We will continue to go with Gay, Cockrell, and some rookie contract guys (Boykin and others) at CB. Golden and a future high draft pick at SS...

 

Yup, we have some tough decisions looming ahead if we want to keep our young core together. Smart drafting and free agency plugs will have to round out the roster so we can afford a talented top end. Will have to say goodbye to some of our pricey veterans like you mentioned. Beachum, Gradkowski, the Allen's, and even Timmons unless he's willing to take a massive cut like we did with Ike. Timmons has a huge cap number that just won't jive with us trying to sign our young offensive stars.

And a nice article about Jarvis Jones from Steelers Wire.

 

Ok, so lets see, who would at this point would want to give Jarvis Jones a 5th year option at well, 8 to 9 large? Or sign him to a lucrative contract?

Here is a breakdown of current 3-4 outside linebackers salaries:

http://overthecap.com/position/3-4-outside-linebacker/

 

Given that the front office gave Jason Worilds 10 million for one year it isn't a stretch to believe that they offer Jones a middle of the pack contract just to have a guy with time in the system and not sacrifice depth.

 

I think the game is changing so much I don't value OLB'S as much as I used to . I think it would be prudent for the Steelers to do the same ...Each and every season I see more and more Quick passing, I can see a point in 5 or so years when the goal will be to get the ball out in 2.2 seconds from 90 % of the league...
When this occurs the front 7 will have little to no value unless the Defense can play press and force the QB to hold the ball . IMO the days of building a Great Defense with LB'S is a thing of the past .
This Team needs to be investing draft picks and money on the back end first and foremost ...

I know some will still argue that no D can cover forever you have to get pressure, I agree with that , but you must stop the quick throw First and then get pressure. To do that you have to be able to match up with 3,4, or 5 Wide .....

I would be very happy if we only took DB'S in the first 3 rounds for the next 3 drafts ... If our guy is not there move back if our guy is close then move up ...This Team is in Grave danger of falling way behind the curve ...Roll with the times or get rolled over ...

All the rules are slanted towards the WR....All the rules are slanted towards protecting the QB ...The only way to try to balance that is with DB'S and to take the ball away from the Offense ...

 

No way does JJ get a 5th year option. A reasonable extension is in order; maybe half of the going rate, around $4 mil/season. 4-5 years for $20 million-ish. Maybe even a 3-year deal for slightly more in favor of the player.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say here. I wouldn't go to the extreme that you suggest, but some investment in the DB's should be made. DT's to provide the quick pressure at the shortest distance possible and DB's to disrupt the timing might be the best way to go. We have Tuitt and Heyward, so we may be good there, but we need an upgrade at CB for our defense to round out.

I don't think we're in danger of falling behind the curve, but we need to focus on the DB's now much like we did with the OL a few years back. Golson is the beginning, but definitely not close to the end.

 

I don't get the hate for Jarvis Jones. Does he deserve a 5th year option? Maybe not... but the Steelers could have done a lot worse. Take a look at players other teams took in the first round of '13.

 

People have the mistaken understanding that 1st round picks are supposed to be dominating players. Obviously that's the goal, but the actual success rate by that standard is pretty low. We went and screwed ourselves by having an unbelievable string of picks like Hampton, Troy, Ben, Heath, SBMVP Holmes, Timmons, Pouncey... Now anyone who doesn't live up to that is a bust, or close enough. Even Pro Bowl caliber players and all-around excellent picks like Heyward and DeCastro (and Timmons) are flamed if they don't reach Pro Bowl status fast enough. What chance does a guy who needs time to improve and helps our team quietly have?

The fan base will never be satisfied with a good, solid player that could help the team for 10 years as a first round pick. Guys like:

Keisel (who took a long time to become the player he did)
Gilbert (ditto)
Ike (ups and downs)
Worilds (good player, but not great)
Townsend (ditto)

...Guys like that would have been slaughtered around here if they'd been first round picks. Instead, Keisel, who was taken in the 7th, is a hero. I get that a guy being taken in the 1st or 7th can lead to either disappointment or pleasant surprise. But I wish at some point they'd get beyond that and look at the actual contributions. The jury is still out on Jarvis, but he could definitely be a solid contributor for years to come; the kind of guy who, if he was taken in the 6th, you'd all be rooting for and pumping up instead of bashing. Regardless of what we expected on draft day, the fact is he has something to offer, and he's gotten better as time has gone by. That's good. Let's keep watching.

 

I agree with this and I actually think he is a good player. My point is we need to switch our focus from OLB'S to CB'S and Safeties .....If we can get by with cheaper guys at the position then we need to do it .....
My thought process is like Rick Flair ..'To be the best you have to beat the best'....No doubt that's the Pat's and that quick passing game . We need DB'S to match up with them ...They did exactly what we should have done to the Rats last year .Did they even run the ball at all that game ?

The point is a great Front 7 can be schemed into oblivion so why not save money and invest that Money on skill positions ?? We don't really need a QB nor do we need WR'S we need DB'S and another RB....I dang sure wished we had got Karlos Williams remember me saying he will be the steal of the draft ?

 

Exactly this. I don't understand how a 5th year option or a "lucrative" extension are our only options. If we choose not to pick up a 5th year option, he is a FA that we will negotiate a fair price for. Nobody is going to give him a huge deal. Your range is about spot on IMO... Besides, why are we worried about his 5th year option in the middle of year three anyways? Lol

 

Personally, I wouldn't be pimping Jarvis Jones if he was picked anywhere after the 1st. Most teams pick 1st round picks to be a difference maker. He is not. It's unfortunate. The draft is a hit or miss. Who knew that Keisel: 7th rounder. Who knew he would become the force that he was. Greg Lloyd. 6th rounder. Difference maker. Ziggy Hood. 1st rounder. Fail. Casey Hampton: 1st rounder. Difference maker. Antonio Brown: 6th rounder. Difference maker.Tim Worley: 1st rounder. Fail. Could go on all day.

Since Jarvis Jones was a 1st rounder, yes the expectations are the ceiling because of how the OLB's were used in LeBeau's system. Now that Butler has changed the structure and has the D Line doing more rushing instead of eating up blocks does this give a pass to the OLB's now? I don't think so. I have said that Dupree already to me has more upside then Jones. Jones is average. If that's what you all want to see then so be it. I don't. Not in that position. They have another season to figure out if he is worth retaining.

 

I've seen others say that, too. But why? Are you basing that on stats or what you see/read? A little of both?

Granted I haven't seen many full games this year, maybe 1 or 2, but from what I've seen Dupree hasn't really created much of anything. His sacks, from what I recall, have essentially been gifts where no one blocked him or he chased down a scrambling QB from behind. Has he ever simply beaten the guy in front of him? Again, I'm not sure as I haven't seen much. Just trying to see it from the other side.

I like Dupree and I think he has a lot of upside too. But is the (I'm paraphrasing here) "he's already better than Jarvis" line due to reality, or what we want reality to be? Dupree, the recent 1st round savior versus Jones, the semi-recent first round "bust".

Jones doesn't have much in the stat sheet this year. Not as much as Dupree. But I've seen Jones demolish a respected LT (Solder) so bad that they had to bench the guy. Has Dupree done that? Dupree got the sack in that game, but Jones, IMO, had more of an impact. And I think that's been the case all year.

If those two (Dupree and Jones) turn into a Elvis Dumervill sack guy (Dupree) and a Courtney Upshaw disruptor (Jones, who is close to being there already), then I think we'll have a good situation on our hands. I think that's what we can expect our future OLB production to look like.

Anyway, just curious as to why people lean Dupree in the Dupree vs Jones debate.

 

Statistically, 20 of the 1st round picks will be 5 year starters, so yes, fans, and the coaches have expectations that their first round picks will at least by year two be a solid starter on their team unless they are unlucky and draft 1 of those twelve that are marginal or worse yet, a bust, I would put JJ in that 12 group marginal player status right now...

Based on history, the 2015 draft class will yield about 54 five-year starters and only four players who will be selected as an All Pro three times or more. Out of those 54 starters, 20 will come from the 32 players selected in the first round with 12 more from the second round. This means that half of the 64 players selected in rounds one and two will be five-year starters. Only about one in ten of the remaining players drafted will go on to achieve five-year starter status.

 

I agree with the other poster that Dupree has more upside, but that's due to his athletic ability and the fact he's a rookie, not what I've seen from him this year. I agree with you that Jarvis has been more effective overall.

I would give Dupree a hair more credit than you are, though. You're right that most of his sacks were gifts from the other team. One of the things I read about him in a scouting report was that he does a great job of taking advantage of the offense's mistake. At the time I thought that was kind of a weird skill, because shouldn't everyone have it? But they don't. Ziggy Hood drove me crazy the way he rushed the passer, always hesitating on his way to the QB because he was preparing to block the pass or chase down the ball. His hustle and desire to be a team player actually cost us sacks and pressure. Dupree takes full advantage, and that's pretty great. The James Harrison sack against the Packers in the preseason is one example of Dupree exploiting an opening the offense gave him, if you saw that one. To me it's kind of like the skill of recovering fumbles. Sometimes it's just dumb luck, but on both of Jarvis's fumble recoveries this year, he was chasing down the play with hustle. That's something Ziggy also benefited from, with his hustle.

Plus, one of his sacks (against SF) he earned 100%. It looked like he was unblocked, but that's just because he beat the RT off the ball so fast, the guy never touched him. Still, I haven't really seen him beat a guy with a pass rush move, except that quick first step.

 

Thanks for the reply. I've only seen most of the Cheats game and some of the Ravens, so any info on how these guys play is always appreciated.

Didn't want to make it seem like I was trying to downplay what Dupree has done in order to prop up Jones. After all, if what Dupree has done so far is so easy, well, then, maybe someone else should have gotten those gimmee sacks! While those plays may not test him physically, it shows that he has a good level of awareness. And athleticism!

I wanted to steer the thought process away from a possible "Dupree has more upside because he has more sacks" kind of thing.