It seems I Valued him to high

True. My suspicion, though - and I have nothing to back this up with - is that Wallace just is a bit of a douche in that respect. That's how he is. He's not TO yet, and I don't think he will be. But he has a degree of douchiness that's probably part of what makes him who he is. But on the douche scale, he's probably the right side of Santonio Holmes, and certainly further away from TO.

When I re-watch SB43 and see Holmes nagging Ben to throw him the ball, it always kind of annoys me. It's Holmes saying "I want to be the big hero!" If Wallace had been doing that all season, and throwing strops when he wasn't thrown to, then I'd find it annoying as well. But most of his douchiness so far is limited to making wild claims in the media, and speculative assertions as to his value.

 

Mark him up as another Diva wide receiver. It makes me feel great the the O lineman are getting there money these days, they seem to be more grounded (no pun intended) and work every down.

 

Well I think we trade him....With a new OC the Team can't worry about whether or not he will sign or play...Haley is a Team 1st. type of Coach and he designs his plays to fit his players so Wallace has picked the wrong time to pull his crap.....

I think we can get a round 2 pick at best probably a low 3rd.....Also we have 2 WR'S who will be in the same position next year so the more the Team allows Wallace to dictate to them then the harder it will make to get Brown and Sanders signed.....

I expect Wallace to be traded by mid week....

 

Hey, Snack, what was "idiotic" about those statements? My first statement was that I am not a Mike Wallace fan. I AM NOT A MIKE WALLACE FAN!!!!! You can be if you want to be but please don't call me an idiot because you disagree. My second statement about Wallace not even being in the league if he didn't have 4.25 speed is MY OPINIONL!!!!! Do you ever get on here and express your opinion?! I think you do. In fact, this is the forum to do just that. IMHO, if Mike Wallace had 4.55 speed he would not be nearly as attractive a player as he is with 4.25 speed. In fact, he's not a natural receiver, he gets alligator arms when he's catching a ball in traffic, he doesn't fight for the ball, he would not make a good slot receiver. Now I ask you, WHAT IS IDIOTIC ABOUT MY THOUGHTS ON THAT, MY FRIEND??!!

If you want to get on here and contest my opinion, that's fine. But don't get on here and start calling me names for expressing my opinion. I think Wallace is becoming a little bit of a diva. 32 teams chose not to sign him to a $10M a year contract. THOSE TEAMS WERE NOT WRONG!@!!!! Those teams realize this ain't no Larry Fitzgerald!!

Disagree with my assertions and opinions all you want, but please don't get on here and disparage me by calling me names. It makes you look, well, idiotic. Is that fair???????

 

Man, I hope Mike realises the ill-feeling he's generating on this board.

How does that make you feel about your holdout NOW, Mr Wallace?

 

Hey, Snack, what was "idiotic" about those statements? My first statement was that I am not a Mike Wallace fan. I AM NOT A MIKE WALLACE FAN!!!!! You can be if you want to be but please don't call me an idiot because you disagree. My second statement about Wallace not even being in the league if he didn't have 4.25 speed is MY OPINIONL!!!!! Do you ever get on here and express your opinion?! I think you do. In fact, this is the forum to do just that. IMHO, if Mike Wallace had 4.55 speed he would not be nearly as attractive a player as he is with 4.25 speed. In fact, he's not a natural receiver, he gets alligator arms when he's catching a ball in traffic, he doesn't fight for the ball, he would not make a good slot receiver. Now I ask you, WHAT IS IDIOTIC ABOUT MY THOUGHTS ON THAT, MY FRIEND??!!

If you want to get on here and contest my opinion, that's fine. But don't get on here and start calling me names for expressing my opinion. I think Wallace is becoming a little bit of a diva. 32 teams chose not to sign him to a $10M a year contract. THOSE TEAMS WERE NOT WRONG!@!!!! Those teams realize this ain't no Larry Fitzgerald!!

Disagree with my assertions and opinions all you want, but please don't get on here and disparage me by calling me names. It makes you look, well, idiotic. Is that fair???????[/quote:13g3m9wy]
I was talking about these two:

"If he didn't have 4.25 speed he wouldn't even be in the NFL."

"Hey, Mike, 32 NFL teams could not have been wrong."

I don't think you're an idiot for not being a Mike Wallace fan. That would make all fans of other teams idiots too. I was also very careful to not all you an idiot, but rather say that the things you said were stupid/idiotic, because that is my opinion. It's my opinion that your opinion is idiotic. The first one is just wrong and there's not a lot else to say about it, but I know you're not the only one that thinks Wallace has no talent whatsoever besides his speed. I think that's incredibly ignorant, but I'm not going to sit down with you and watch tape, so I won't bother trying to change your mind there. The other thing is stupid because it implies that no team wants him, or no team wants to sign him to a long-term contract, or that no team wants to sign him to a long-term contract for however much money he is really looking for. Do I even have to say why this is stupid? Do people still not get it?

 

I was talking about these two:

"If he didn't have 4.25 speed he wouldn't even be in the NFL."

"Hey, Mike, 32 NFL teams could not have been wrong."

I don't think you're an idiot for not being a Mike Wallace fan. That would make all fans of other teams idiots too. I was also very careful to not all you an idiot, but rather say that the things you said were stupid/idiotic, because that is my opinion. It's my opinion that your opinion is idiotic. The first one is just wrong and there's not a lot else to say about it, but I know you're not the only one that thinks Wallace has no talent whatsoever besides his speed. I think that's incredibly ignorant, but I'm not going to sit down with you and watch tape, so I won't bother trying to change your mind there. The other thing is stupid because it implies that no team wants him, or no team wants to sign him to a long-term contract, or that no team wants to sign him to a long-term contract for however much money he is really looking for. Do I even have to say why this is stupid? Do people still not get it?[/quote:3egr3ui7]


I may have been using a little hyperbole on the first statement. Some teams may be interested if he were a 4.5 guy instead of a 4.25 guy. BUT, we can have a discussion about his abilities as a receiver. If you're a 4.5 guy and can't rely on sheer speed, you've got to be a guy like Hines Ward. A guy that's a great blocker, not afraid to go over the middle, will fight for the ball, etc. Wallace is none of those things. He's not even a natural receiver. By that I mean that the ball doesn't melt into his hands like it does some guys, Heath Miller and Antnio Brown being good examples. It takes great effort for him to catch the football. He fancies himself as one of the great receivers in the game obviously becasue he's asking for Fitz type money and he's nowhere close. Did he even play the second half of last season or was he already vacationing in Hawaii in advance of the Pro Bowl?

My second "idiotic" point was that 32 NFL teams were not wrong. Did you see any team clamoring to sign him to a $10M contract AND give up a first round draft pick in return? Did you see the Steelers rushing to sign him to a long-term, big money deal and blowing through their salary cap again? The answer is obviously NO to both of those questions. Wallace (and his agent who disgraces the name of Bus) ought to take a lesson from that and realize that he's not quite there yet. He still has a little bit of proving to do. Maybe he can become one of the elite receivers in the league. But at this point he is very much a one trick pony and both the Steelers and the rest of the league realize that.

I'm sorry, Snack. I don't see anything "idiotic" or "stupid" about either one of those points.

 

Hang on. If he didn't run 4.25 then he wouldn't be Mike Wallace, would he? Isn't that a bit like saying, "well sure Ben's good, but if he didn't have any arms then he wouldn't even be playing in the NFL..."

 

I understandand your point, Thigpen. The point I'm trying to make is that it's his speed that it his primary, and really only, asset at this point. What are the other attributes of his game that make him "great"? When you think of Mike Wallace, you think of great SPEED? At least with someone like Desean Jackson, he's a breakaway threat on kickoff and punt returns and also is a great YAC guy. Wallace is not. After he catches the ball he doesn't do anything special with it. Brown is a guy that has the ability to avoid tackles and gain additional yardage after he catches it. The only way Wallace can do that is if he gets behind the coverage. If he's in traffic, he generally runs into the tackle and goes down at first contact.

 

Or...

[youtube:kt727srg]oPTFusnXDso[/youtube:kt727srg]

 

Alright, I'll give you that Mike is not a threat with the ball in his hands.

And I will say that I agree if you only run a 4.5 you have to be like Hines Ward to be successful (you know, one of a kind). And I was also wrong about the 32 teams thing, because I forgot that the teams would also have to give up a 1st round pick when signing him. I guess I got mixed up.

 

Your (not so) subtle sarcasm is not lost on me.

Wallace is a threat with the ball in his hands if he has the opportunity to get behind the coverage or use his speed. That's a great weapon to have. I'm not denying that. I don't blame Wallace for wanting to get paid. But he is no Larry Fitzgerald and I think the sooner he and his agent realize that the more productive the contract negotiations with the Steelers can become.

And forget Hines Ward. If Wallace had 4.5 speed he's not even Jerricho Cotchery. Oh, let me add, IMHO.

 

TTF, I watched every game last year. I'm not sure I can pull up any You Tube evidence of Wallace getting alligator arms going over the middle, people only tend to post the great plays on YT, but I know what I saw. I also saw his inability (perceived or real, you decide) to come back and fight for the ball or at least make the defender earn the interception or the knock down. I love Wallace's speed as much as anybody else but I'm not happy with Wallace's lofty perceptions of himself at this point in his career. Be honest with me, if we have one play on fourth and 12 to sustain a drive at the end of the game, are you more comfortable with Wallace being the primary target over, Heath, AB, or Hines (whene he was here)? If he wants to be the X, the number one guy, he still has some proving to do. That's all I'm saying. I think if he swallows a healthy dose of humility and realizes he hasn't done anything yet, there's still hope.

 

A lot of posters form their opinions from other fans, in many cases around here, from other message boarders. It catches on like a virus. There is no evidence to support the claim that Wallace is not good after the catch. He's beyond good after the catch. He's not just fast, he's also quick, and he's not just quick, he also breaks tackles very well for a skinnier guy. I've actually yelled at him a couple of times for running into contact when I thought he could have just outrun the guy.

But there are things that are popular to say. Mendenhall is soft. Wallace is soft and can only run one route. Woodley is lazy. Burn the "bubble screen" play from the playbook (it's a great play when called at the right time). They read it and repeat it, and it gets repeated again and again and again until what happened on the field has nothing to do with what people think happened on the field.

 

Snack, I assure you, I form my opinions from watching the Steelers play football and not from what anyone else says. You and I obviously see differences in Wallace that we won't resolve on this MB. I see a receiver with phenomenal speed but who has some major catching up to do in other areas of his game. You see it differently. I see a receiver who seems to be acting a little bit like a diva (I want Fitz money, I won't sign my tender, etc. etc.) and you obviously see it differently. Contrary to what you may believe, I do think Wallace can be a tremendous weapon in our offense but I don't really look at him as a #1 receiver, which is obviously the way he views himself. I have formulated this opinion by watching him play the game and not based on what I've read on this message board or in any opinion column. Just because someone sees Wallace differently than you do doesn't mean that we have a pack mentality and we are all forming our opinions from each other. Like you, we all have the intelligence to form our own opinions about things.

 

I did find this in a Gerry Dulac, PPG, chat transcript dated 1/4/12 which supports the "alligator arms" and "not fighting for the ball" perception:

MiStlrFan: Gerry: Did Mike Wallace "alligator arm" a couple of passes on Sunday? It looked he did. I just don't see him being a go-to guy when he can't fight for a ball or is afraid to get hit.

Gerry Dulac: I don't know if he alligator-armed a couple or not, but I will say he did not aggressively pursue a couple catches or use his body to properly get position on a catch -- the same things he did last year in the Super Bowl when the Steelers threw three consecutive passes to him, all incompletions, on the final possession.

If you remember the deep pass into the end zone against the Browns, he all but stood there and watched the defensive back drop the interception. His job in that instance is, if he can't catch the ball, to make sure the other guy doesn't catch it, either.
I thought he was over all that earlier this season. I guess not.


I'm obviously not the only person that's noticed it and a reporter that gets paid to cover the Steelers seems to have the same kinds of criticism.

 

TTF, did you read what Gerry Dulac wrote in the chat transcript that I posted above:
If you remember the deep pass into the end zone against the Browns, he all but stood there and watched the defensive back drop the interception. His job in that instance is, if he can't catch the ball, to make sure the other guy doesn't catch it, either.
--Gerry Dulac - Steelers chat 1/4/12

Now I realize that I am not a professional, I'm just a fan like you are, but Gerry Dulac is someone who gets paid to follow the Steelers and offer his opinions and analysis of their play. He obviously, based on what he said in this chat transcript, saw at least one instance where Wallace didn't seem to challenge the defender on an underthrown pass. I believe there may have been multiple instances where this happened. He also references his hesitance to catch the ball over the middle in response to the questioner's inquiry about Wallace's "alligator arms" which I believe occured in the Denver playoff game and not the Cleveland game. I'm not just making this stuff up. I watched the games and there are obviously other people, both casual fans and paid observers, who saw some of these flaws in Wallace.

I'm not trying to make Wallace sound bad. I realize he can be a tremendous weapon if utilized properly. IMHO, he will never be a great number one receiver until he corrects some of these flaws.

 

This is the only game I haven't evaluated yet, and you guys made me skip ahead, consarn it! I remember the one where he "didn't come back and fight for the ball or at least make the defender earn the interception or the knock down." People complained about it at the time. I remember thinking something along the same lines when it happened, although I thought people were blowing it out of proportion. After viewing it again, I blame him even less than I did the first time. And it should be noted that it was not an interception. I'm not noting that because that makes it seem like less of a big deal (I wouldn't support a lack of effort to stop an INT no matter the result), but because the ball was so underthrown that not even the DB could catch it despite being in a much better position to catch it. Wallace had outrun the guy and was outside of him, and the ball was underthrown, and both men slowed down for it, but then the ball was even shorter than that. I think the wind knocked it down. The Cleveland guy jumps up to catch it, but then the ball is down at his feet. Wallace doesn't go up for the ball, but why would he? That's like jumping to pick up a penny on the ground. He bent down and reached for the ball with his right hand -- it looked to me like to knock it out rather than catch it -- and the guy dropped it on his own. The way both guys misjudged the ball, I'm positive the wind was involved. Or maybe it was just an extra crappy throw. But either way, Wallace was outside of the guy and the ball was thrown where he simply couldn't get it. It looks to me like he tried his hardest at the end. Before that it looked like he was slow to adjust, but I think that's because he thought the ball would come farther. The Cleveland guy sure thought so. Anyway, it's ambiguous at best. Hard to say anything for sure. I don't know why someone would use a play like that to judge the guy over the hundreds of other plays we have that we can use to form a composite opinion. I saw a play this year where Chris Hoke was too busy celebrating a teammate's sack to recover a loose fumble right at his feet. It was stupid, careless, and putting foolish behavior ahead of the team's welfare. If he'd been paying attention to the game instead of being so eager to help Cam Heyward dance and prance, he could have gotten the ball and maybe even run with it. Should I talk about that play to define what kind of player he was? Or use all the plays I saw? To me, that was even worse than this, because that was definitely a mistake. This play is debatable and weird.

As for the alligator arm play, this one is debunked extremely easily. He was running across the middle, and looking where he was going, making sure not to run into the umpire. Ben threw the ball a hair earlier than Wallace expected (blame either one of them, I have no idea what the plan was) and Wallace wasn't looking yet. By the time he turns his head to the QB, the ball is already too close. He raises his hands and the ball sails just above his head literally before his hands can get up in time. Blame him all you want for not looking in time, but given the time that he did look, he had a zero percent chance of catching it. Zero. At the time the ball is over his helmet, his hands are still rising and only at his shoulders. After it was gone, he put his hands down and slowed his feet and protected himself so he wouldn't get hit. The result is that his hands flashed up and down very quickly, and cranky fans ran to their message boards. It was NOT alligator arms, which I would define as refusal or hesitation to catch a catchable ball in order to avoid a hit. This was avoiding a hit after an uncatchable ball (due to timing of look back to QB, not due to pass accuracy) had already come and gone.

I'm surprised any Steeler fan would question Wallace's willingness to catch a ball or go over the middle (which he does) or give maximum effort, and use Desean Jackson as an example of someone who has more use.

 

Alright, alright! I can see that in order to keep up with TTF and Snack I'm going to have to start recording all of the games this year! :-D

 

TTF, did you read what Gerry Dulac wrote in the chat transcript that I posted above:
If you remember the deep pass into the end zone against the Browns, he all but stood there and watched the defensive back drop the interception. His job in that instance is, if he can't catch the ball, to make sure the other guy doesn't catch it, either.
--Gerry Dulac - Steelers chat 1/4/12

Now I realize that I am not a professional, I'm just a fan like you are, but Gerry Dulac is someone who gets paid to follow the Steelers and offer his opinions and analysis of their play. He obviously, based on what he said in this chat transcript, saw at least one instance where Wallace didn't seem to challenge the defender on an underthrown pass. I believe there may have been multiple instances where this happened. He also references his hesitance to catch the ball over the middle in response to the questioner's inquiry about Wallace's "alligator arms" which I believe occured in the Denver playoff game and not the Cleveland game. I'm not just making this stuff up. I watched the games and there are obviously other people, both casual fans and paid observers, who saw some of these flaws in Wallace.

I'm not trying to make Wallace sound bad. I realize he can be a tremendous weapon if utilized properly. IMHO, he will never be a great number one receiver until he corrects some of these flaws. [/quote:36shaig1]
Nothing against Dulac, but you are putting a lot on "professionals." Professional opinion-givers are wrong all the time. Like, constantly. Have you ever listened to commentators during a game or turned on NFL network? Constant wrong-ness. I got into a blog-fight with Dale Lolley (who also gets paid to follow and talk about the Steelers) early in the season because he was inexplicably defending Jonathan Scott's performace against the Colts. A few weeks later, he went on to site the "fact" that Scott was on the field for all 5 of our TDs against the Titans, meant as sort of a "take that" to all of us Scott haters. I don't have to tell you that first of all, that's the stupidest stat I've ever heard (wasn't Darnell Stapleton on the field for ALL of our offensive TDs the year we won the Super Bowl?). He was also wrong, because Scott was not on the field for the first one. When I pointed that out and told him I was staring at the screen as I typed, he said something about getting my eyes checked because he already checked the tape and it was Scott, not Starks/Gilbert on the field. Well, he was wrong, not that he ever admitted it.

The point there isn't that Dulac is the same or as bad as Lolley, but that these professionals really ARE just fans like us. They are better than the worst of us, for sure, but they are just people and they don't have better eyes or opinions than the more educated fans like you, me, and TTF. I can say the same for the commentators out there. All they have is a paycheck and access to some behind-the-scenes stuff. In this instance, I'm not even sure Dulac reviewed the play. He might have just been going off of memory. Whether Wallace's effort was lacking or it was just a hard ball to adjust to (he does not mention the Browns player jumping as high as he can and then reaching down to his shoelaces for the ball, which is undeniably relevant), or if it was a mix of the two options is a matter of opinion. But I'm inclined to believe if he really wanted to be more accurate, he'd review the play and take that into consideration. Although I doubt he'd take the time to do that at a fan's suggestion.

 

DirecTV short cuts! Each one is only half an hour, and all the non-primetime games are on it (like 11 of them I think)