Is this wrong of me?

Yep, 31 other NFL teams were just clamoring to break the bank for Larry, er, I mean Mike Wallace when they had the opportunity this offseason, now weren't they? (see, I can be sarcastic too [/quote:1k5smtyx]
The fact that no one wanted to trade their 1st round pick -- some of them really really high -- in addition to dropping over $50 million, when they could just wait a year and keep their first round pick means they don't want him. Is that the premise? Keep in mind we're not talking about drafting Wallace in the first round, or trading him for a first rounder. We're talking about waving goodbye to a first round pick in order to sign a free agent. Tell me, how many restricted free agents even force the conversation of a 1st round pick sacrifice? Did Vincent Jackson? He's the man who you've stated you would gleefully exchange with Wallace if given the opportunity. He was an RFA in 2010, got the 1st round tender, and was scooped up by... who exactly? Oh, but at least then he manned up and reported to camp on time, right? No? He sat out until November? So he's just like Wallace, I guess. Oh wait, except Wallace hasn't done that yet, and any day now we're going to hear about how he's signed and will play in our season opener. And Wallace doesn't have multiple DUIs under his belt, either.

Then again, Jackson has a much brighter 5 years ahead of him, doesn't he? He's only 29 and unlikely to slow down anytime soon. Age 33 is right around a wide receiver's prime, isn't it? Wallace meanwhile is already 25 and has had his best seasons as a pro. He's going only downhill from here. We know that not based on anything logical or sensible, but because you told us so. And given your knack for basing opinions on reality like you've shown in the posts above, why shouldn't we believe you?

Come on, Jack. Even as desperate last gasps go, this one's not so good.

 

Snack, I don't know where you come up with this stuff that, for lack of a better name, I will call...logic. Your "logic" and "reasoning" are on the mark and for that I will denounce you as a fan. You are here-by ordered to turn in your fan card, turn in all memorabilia, and hand over to me any season tickets that you might have in your possession. Please, in the future refrain from all logic! Thank you for your cooperation!

 

LOL

Snack basically covered everything I had to say pretty much spot on. While not a fan of holdouts, I still understand why some players do it. It just so happens this time it's a Steeler doing the holding out and understandably our fan base doesn't like it one bit. But it's no reason for fans to start acting like Wallace is magically all of the sudden junk. :roll:

 

Snack, I realize that you consider yourself to be the KEEPER of all logic and reason on this MB. I guess that comes from being holed up in a darkened room watching hour upon hour of game film. Shucks, I only have time to watch the game once usually so it would stand to reason that I would be ignorant and uninformed. But there is hope for me as long as I coninue to read your enlightened posts on this MB. With regard to Wallace, we can agree...to disagree. I believe he has some major flaws in his game and that opposing DCs have figured out how to take him out of the gameplan. His second half performance would indicate that. Wait! Was that logical? You seem to believe through your superior skills of logic and reason that he could be the second coming of Jerry Rice. His performance this season will be the final arbiter. Will logic and reason prevail? Or will the uninformed opinion of ignorant fan win the day? Stay tuned...

 

First of all, I just so happen to have a skylight, so shows what you know. Second of all, I'll believe DCs have figured him out when he stops getting wide open deep, not when his numbers dip. Third of all, I did say he was the second coming of Jerry Rice. I believe those were my exact words. So you got me there. And remember when I said he's good at getting YAC? I also think he's the next Barry Sanders. Fourth of all, is this is final season? Fifth of all, I never said you are ignorant and I don't think that's the case. I think you like to be against the grain (like MANY here) and for you personally, that includes sometimes hoping our players and team fail. That's not an insult. You've said so yourself, more than once. Sixth of all, I've made zero predictions about his future. I've only made observations about his past. That's how I can afford to be all smug and think of myself as being never wrong. Because I'm looking at evidence, not guessing about what's to come. Maybe you're right, and Wallace will fall flat on his face this year. But if he does, it will be the first time in his career. That's not what happened in the second half of last season, no matter what his game logs on NFL.com look like.

If you'll look closely, you'll notice that I never even have said MW is better than AB. I think he's better at some things, and AB is better at others. AB actually has more check marks in the win column since he has more talents. After my mega evaluation, I declined to select a superior player, and explained the whole thing in detail in the sticky thread at the top of the main page. You might also notice that I have never advocated spending $50 million on him, let alone more than that. Frankly I think it's far too much money, and I am one of those people that worries about having so much tied up in the WR position. We have other young talent that will be seeking a new contract soon. However, the market is inflated, and inferior players are simply making too much damn money. So when you compare Wallace to the other receivers who aren't as good, but make too much damn money, his market price should be higher than theirs. You can argue he's not even worth $20 million, but there's no arguing that he's worth more than Pierre Garcon. That doesn't mean we have to or should spend it, but it sure as hell means he knows how much he can get. For me personally, I'd love to keep him long-term because I think what he brings makes a bigger impact than his numbers. Even with no catches, he helps all of our other receivers immensely, and the running game. Then there're the big plays he produces himself. However, I'm hoping Omar can get creative with the books and give Wallace the ego boost he's looking for without giving up too much cash. And I'm hoping Wallace will eventually take what he knows will be less than his maximum potential and stay here.

 

Fair enough. I can accept most of what you have to say but I ADAMANTLY disagree with one of your statements. I have NEVER hoped that the team will fail!! I have been pissed at individual players, like I am currently with Wallace, but just because I dont wildly root for an individual player does not mean that I hope their play negatively impacts the team.

One last thing, while you may not have called Wallace the second coming of Jerry Rice (sarcastic people have a hard time understanding hyperbole), you don't seem to want to acknowledge that Wallace still has some major flaws in his game that, if left uncorrected, will preclude him from becoming the top flight receiver that he already believes himself to be.

That's the thing that bugs me the most about Wallace. He has already elevated himself to a position of grandeur that he has not earned. Has he had some success, primarily as a result of his blazing speed? Absolutely. The problem is he seems to think he's already arrived. AB is a much better receiver at this point and if I were the Steelers, the offer I now put on the table for Wallace will be less than the one just awarded to Brown.

 

I think Antonio Brown is one of the finest receivers in the league when it comes to coming down with the ball in tough circumstances, footwork along the sidelines, running after the catch... He's a top tier, elite player in those ways. Wallace isn't on that level when it comes to those aspects and everybody knows it, but that doesn't mean he's lacking at all. Just like how Brown isn't in Wallace's league when it comes to speed, but that doesn't mean he's lacking in it. He has good speed. Of course that you're right that when it comes to certain areas like going up for a high ball or catching one in traffic, Wallace is not in the same league as FitzGerald or the Johnsons. But frankly, they aren't in his league when it comes to getting open deep. Calvin is the best of those three, but he can't create separation as well or as often as Wallace. Mike does it every week, despite the heavy attention paid to him.

Without putting in too much time and detail, my main points I've been trying to make while defending Wallace are:

1. Just because he's not the best at something doesn't mean he's not good, or good enough. Comparing him to another has zero to do with his own play. He has good hands, runs good routes, catches difficult passes, makes plays with the ball in his hands. He is quite good at these things, and is definitely good enough at these things to cause serious fear in defenses in combination with his speed (and so he is separated from track players like Ginn). We're all aware he's not as good as Brown in some of those areas. THAT'S FANTASTIC NEWS, BECAUSE ANTONIO BROWN IS ALSO ON OUR TEAM.

2. Not all attributes are created equal. Being the best at one part is not necessarily as good as being the best at another part. The difference between 4.8 speed and 4.6 speed is almost nothing. The difference between 4.4 speed and 4.2 speed is enormous. The reason being? The fastest DBs run a 4.3 or 4.4. He's faster than all of the defenders. None of them can keep up with him, and they have to go to extra lengths to protect themselves against him. That exposes them more, and he still manages to beat them. Think of the attributes of a quarterback. Accuracy, recognition, arm strength, foot speed. All varying levels of importance. When it comes to receivers, speed is always a big one, but not necessarily the biggest. There's also intelligence, routes, hands, etc. However, when a receiver's speed gets ridiculously out of hand like Wallace's, it grows in importance. Like he gets one point for every hundredth of a second under 4.5, three points for every hundredth under 4.4, and five points for every hundredth under 4.3. Not every former track star can cash in on those points, because they don't have the requisite skills to back them up. Combined with Mike's receiving skills, his "one trick" is worth as much as Brown's entire bag of tricks put together.

I was referring to two threads. This one, in which you said you are hoping Wallace flops. Yes, you also said that you hope Brown and Sanders play well and the team does well anyway, but I can't imagine how Mike Wallace flopping doesn't hurt this team in comparison to Mike Wallace playing well. We are absolutely worse off with him flopping. The other thread was started by you, entitled "Anyone else rooting for us NOT to go to the Super Bowl?"

http://www.thesteelersfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1132&p=20707#p20707

In it you explain that you'd rather lose early and have no chance than make it to the big game and have a chance, but lose. You eventually do some partial retractions and say you were venting after a loss, but the point remains that there are times you would rather see this team lose than win, because... I don't know, I guess because it's less embarrassing than winning in front of a bigger audience. You point out that some players said they'd rather not go to the Super Bowl than go and lose, but of course that's very different from saying they'd rather not go to the Super Bowl than go and maybe lose. And it's hard to predict the outcome of a February game while it's still December. So I'm betting every one of those players would choose the AFC title and a shot at the NFL title, since the outcome of the future game is completely unknown. I'd also bet they'd have some degree of confidence, considering they bested 15 other teams already and only have to play one more. You didn't even want us to go. I'd rather go, face the mighty Packers or Saints or 49ers (or Giants), and give it our best shot, even limping and without half our players. But that's me, and I didn't say you were less of a fan, I just said that hoping our players and team fail is something you sometimes do. And it is.

 

I was referring to two threads. This one, in which you said you are hoping Wallace flops. Yes, you also said that you hope Brown and Sanders play well and the team does well anyway, but I can't imagine how Mike Wallace flopping doesn't hurt this team in comparison to Mike Wallace playing well. We are absolutely worse off with him flopping. The other thread was started by you, entitled "Anyone else rooting for us NOT to go to the Super Bowl?"

http://www.thesteelersfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1132&p=20707#p20707

In it you explain that you'd rather lose early and have no chance than make it to the big game and have a chance, but lose. You eventually do some partial retractions and say you were venting after a loss, but the point remains that there are times you would rather see this team lose than win, because... I don't know, I guess because it's less embarrassing than winning in front of a bigger audience. You point out that some players said they'd rather not go to the Super Bowl than go and lose, but of course that's very different from saying they'd rather not go to the Super Bowl than go and maybe lose. And it's hard to predict the outcome of a February game while it's still December. So I'm betting every one of those players would choose the AFC title and a shot at the NFL title, since the outcome of the future game is completely unknown. I'd also bet they'd have some degree of confidence, considering they bested 15 other teams already and only have to play one more. You didn't even want us to go. I'd rather go, face the mighty Packers or Saints or 49ers (or Giants), and give it our best shot, even limping and without half our players. But that's me, and I didn't say you were less of a fan, I just said that hoping our players and team fail is something you sometimes do. And it is.[/quote:b064b7fp]


You got me there, Snack. I did say I didn't want the Steelers to go to the Super Bowl and lose after that sucky MNF performance against the Niners. I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT when we go to the Super Bowl and lose. It almost hurts less when we lose in the first or second round of the playoffs. I also predicted that we would not make it past the first or second round of the playoffs and we lost the in the wildcard round to TIM TEBOW OF ALL QBS! I don't know if anybody else feels that way but I do. I would honestly rather lose a playoff game than lose the Super Bowl. But you're right, we can't win it if we aren't there and looking back on it the title of that post was a mistake and I think I stated that after I'd had a few days to think about it. I'll admit it, I'm more of an emotional, type A, high strung, speak and then think kind of fan at times. I agree with what you said about Mike Wallace above. I think we both pretty much have the same sentiments about his abilities and it sounds like you agree that overall, AB is a more well-rounded receiver. Obviously, I believe that we can be a better team when Wallace's speed is part of the mix. I hope Wallace takes his lead from AB and works extremely hard to take his game to the next level. If he does that and earns a big contract then great. But based on his disappearing act the second half of last season and in the post season games he's been involved in I remain a skeptic.

 

It's frustrating but no way would I rather us lose early than lose in the SB. The whole point of the season is to get to the SB. To have a chance at winning it all. I'd much rather say we made it all the way but lost the big one than to say we couldn't make it to the party. That's my feelings.

 

I really wanted to let this go, but I just can't. You really watered down what you originally posted. A lot of fans are more hurt by losing the Super Bowl than losing a playoff game, or not reaching the playoffs. Super Bowl 30 still stings for all of us (although that might be because of how we lost it, but still). That's understandable and that's what you're saying now. What you said originally was you'd prefer we lose in the playoffs or not reach the playoffs rather than even be in the Super Bowl, because you were just so positive we'd lose -- in embarrassing fashion. There is a massive difference between a hypothetical situation in which you're chosing what round your guaranteed loss comes, and what you actually did. What you actually did was say, "God, I hope we don't make it to the Super Bowl, because if we do we'll get our asses kicked. I'd rather lose now, get it over with, and forfeit the opportunity." And that is hoping your team fails.

Couldn't anyone win one game? We're already AFC champs and must have beaten some very good teams. Couldn't some crazy stuff happen and we somehow manage to beat just one NFC team on just one given Sunday? We must be playing some amazing ball in order to win 3 games against 3 playoff teams, right? Nope. We'd be embarrassed. It's a good thing we didn't make it. I'm happy for you.

 

Snack, let me clarify something. To lay the groundwork, to follow is the definition of fan (short for fanatic)
fanatic
Definition
fa·nat·ic[ f? náttik ]NOUN
fa·nat·ics plural

1. extremist: a holder of extreme or irrational enthusiasms or beliefs, especially in religion or politics or sports.2. fan of something: somebody who is very enthusiastic about a pastime or hobby


Now, I probably fall under the number 1 above while you seem to come in more along the lines of number 2 based on your apparent "hobby" of analyzing every single play from every single game so you can get on this MB and prove the likes of number 1 above (me) wrong. I'll admit it, I can say some pretty irrational things after a Steelers loss. I did that after our humiliating defeat on MNF to the Niners. As a Steeler fan(atic), I have been a part of two Super Bowl losses now and I would rather take a baseball bat to the shins than to LOSE IN THE SUPER BOWL. Now, after a few days of sulking I generally do come back around to the land of the rational (where you seem to dwell), just ask my wife. Of course I realize that I cannot predict the future and if you're playing in the Big Game you have a shot at winning the Big Game. If I could glance into a crystal ball and see that the Steelers would make the Super Bowl but that they would lose the game, as a fan who hates to lose Super Bowls, I really believe I would rather them lose in the playoffs instead. Now, one more point of clarification. I have NEVER sat down and rooted for the Steelers to lose a game. Have I said some irrational things (like fans may do from time to time, see above please), yes, but I have always rooted for the Steelers to win the game.

So anyway, I'm assuming that you've never done or said anything irrational after a Steelers loss and that's fine. You're no less a fan based on the second definition above. I, however, have been irrational in the past and will in all likelihood be irrational in the future, but I'm still a fan. And you've got to admit, this MB would be a lot less fun with only the buttoned-up types participating and without a few irrational comments to light a few fires on occasion.

 

I like when the team wears the throw back jerseys!