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Is Brady now the greatest ever?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by JackAttack 5958, Feb 1, 2015.

  1. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Charles Haley has more rings than Joe Greene - he must be a better Defensive Lineman.
     
  2. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Because how many rings he has, has nothing to do with how well he throws a deep ball or that the fact that he utilizes a short passing attack to beat teams, which in terms of deciding on a GOAT, leaves him lower on the list of candidates, IMO. As Steel-in-dc said, thats not his fault but definitely factors in when determining where a QB ranks.

    If I'm putting a team together, I'm choosing a guy who is a better overall passer than Brady. Its not about rings Blount, its about ability, Brady didn't win those rings alone, hes happened to have great teams around him in everyone of those SB's. Marino didnt have any rings and hes hands down a better QB than Brady.
     
  3. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. It's a qb driven league. Brady has been the one mainstay with the pats. You guys keep saying that he just dinks and dunks as though that's a bad thing. He wins games. He wins big games. He has more td passes than any player in human history in the biggest game in human history. He has more yards than any player in human history in the biggest game in human history. He has led his team to more Super Bowls than any player in human history. He has more playoff wins than any player in human history. Which of those things aren't facts? Which of those coveted "deep ball" throwers can lay claim to those stats? It's not the qbs job to run after the catch. It is his job to hit the guy that he throws it to and then it's that guy's job to run. Brady does his job. What would you prefer? A qb that's gonna take you to four or a qb that's gonna take you to 6?
     
  4. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Must be!!! :lolol:
     
  5. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Hey, I just saw a blue car. Just figured I'd throw that out there since it has nothing to do with anything either.
     
  6. aces4me

    aces4me Well-Known Member

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    While I don't think the number of rings is a great measure of a players ability I do think that playoff records and stats are. Brady's are pretty good. I also don't think that the ability to make a deep throw is the ultimate measure of a quarter back's skills. If that were true Flacco would be one of the most skilled QBs in the league. The ability to throw deep is a consideration but not one of the more important ones in my book.
     
  7. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    Is he better than Montana also? Joe got an MVP trophy in the Super Bowl for getting 157yds and a td and a rushing td. If that's what Brady's numbers had been the other night people would be more aggravated than they already are. There are definitely more "talented" quarterbacks but it's a "results" business. It's about doing what you do with what you have. Brady utilizes what he has better than anyone else utilizes what they have. Montana did that too. I'm a "rings" guy. That's why when people talk about Ben not being elite I disagree because he has more trophies than most of the guys that people put ahead of him. Flacco can throw a better deep ball than him but Ben can beat people in more ways than Flacco can. I'd take Ben over him any day.
     
  8. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    It's not the deep pass alone but more that in determining GOAT, I'm picking a more well rounded QB that can make all the throws.
     
  9. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    How is it not pertinent to look at a guy's overall body of work?
     
  10. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Ive explained it a half dozen times already :beathorse:

    You dont have to agree with me, your boyfriend cant be the best ever in your eyes if you feel that way ;)
     
  11. TerribleTowelFlying

    TerribleTowelFlying Staff Member Site Admin Mod Team

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  12. aces4me

    aces4me Well-Known Member

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    Again it comes down to this: I some eras the ability to throw the deep ball under pressure was the skill that won games. In this era it is the ability to throw accurately to the correct receiver in under 2.5 seconds. One is only more important that the other in the era that it wins more games.
     
  13. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    But I don't necessarily think that he is the best ever. I still probably have to say Montana. Brady is very close though and has taken most of his records. He just is better than you guys are giving him credit for is all I'm saying.
     
  14. aces4me

    aces4me Well-Known Member

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    When Sanchez has a higher rating than Steve Young in the playoffs you have to wonder what exactly DVOA measures.
     
  15. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Last I checked, the Patriots won those games, not Tom Brady all by himself. Now if you want to say Tom Brady is a winner - I fully agree. I think you equate championships for a QB to greatness.

    I think you give far too much credit to the QB in terms of winning championships. While I agree having a good QB is pretty critical to being a winner because you largely build an offense around your QB's capabilities, the bottom line is a lot of things have to be aligned correctly for the rest of your team to win it all. The Patriots are very good at that.
     
  16. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    No one in this discussion has said he isnt great, we're discussing GOAT though and there is some stiff competition there, and he falls short IMO.
     
  17. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree that it's a team game but the ball is in the hands of one guy more than any others and that is the qb. You go as far as he takes you for the most part these days. People have talked about the pats d being a big part of his success and people even say that about Ben. But it wasn't the pats d that led their team down the field in multiple Super Bowls for game winning kicks. It was the qb. It wasn't the Steelers d that led our 08 team down the field for the game winning score. It was Ben. It is absolutely a team game but even on teams there are more important people than others and Brady is that guy to the pats just like Ben is that guy to us. That's why qbs get "wins" on their stat sheets. I don't even necessarily think it's totally fair but qbs do get credit for when the team wins. The reason I don't think it's fair is because some teams win in spite of their qb but he still gets the credit. But generally in the pats case they win because Brady steps up when he has to and leads them down the field.
     
  18. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Yeah, to FG's. This is the first SB he has led them to a TD when needed for a win. Compare that to other all time greats and he pales in comparison.
     
  19. aces4me

    aces4me Well-Known Member

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    Name the only QB to lead his team back from a 10 point second half deficit in the super bowl. No hints.
     
  20. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Yes Brady is a clutch quarterback, he does make a bigger contribution to his team winning than a lot of the other guys on his team. But once again the point of the thread is being asked if he is the greatest ever.

    The great thing about football is more than a lot of other sports, I think it is easier than a lot of other sports to see or think how a player might work out in another era vs. the era they are in. In other sports that is really hard because of the way equipment can change

    In baseball the parks are much different today, the ball is wound tighter, the way a left hander with a quirky delivery is brought into to face one guy and one guy only didn't happen in the 1930's. That is why it is hard to compare Walter Johnson's all time wins to someone like Greg Maddux. Tennis is that way too - with the way the racquets and strings are today, it is difficult to try to figure out how someone like Rafael Nadal style would go over in the 80's vs. how Jimmy Connors would play in today's era.

    But football equipment is largely the same, the football is largely the same, the field is still 100 yards. So I think you then ask, does a guy's skill set in one era relate to how he would play in another. I think someone like Aaron Rodgers or the Peyton Manning of 7-8 years ago would. I do not think Tom Brady's style would, my general guess is those short passes would be chewed up because the safeties or LB would move up more to beat up those routes and that would leave corners and safeties to play man on receivers and would be allowed some pawing, grabbing of the receivers which means Brady would have to be able to throw more often downfield and into tighter coverage. He would probably face more pass rush because those routes take a little more time to develop and that is where Brady can get rattled pretty easily with any sustained pass rush.

    So to me Brees and Brady are very efficient and maximize their effectiveness by taking advantage of the way the game is played today, but I have hard time seeing it being effective in the past. For me that is a big part of the reason I don't consider him the GOAT.
     
  21. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    He does not win games. He is on a team that wins games. As was the case with a lot of great QBs. The question isn't whether or not Brady is a winner; it's whether or not he is the greatest of all time--an impossible question to answer, but one that will now be debated a lot. In my estimation, Brady is a perfect fit for the system he is in, and the argument that he is a dink and dunk QB is reasonable within the debate of GOAT.

    1. Brady hardly ever faces a pass rush.
    2. About nine times out of ten, Brady's primary or secondary target is WIDE OPEN. That's play design and execution, and it is unbelievable to watch. Yes, some of it is Brady's audibles. But the Pats' offense works because all 11 men do their job. Ask yourself this: how many drops were there by the Pats' WRs in that Super Bowl? How many flat out dropped passes? Off the top of my head, I can't think of one. They EXECUTE to neat perfection.
    3. Brady can't consistently hit deep balls in big situations.
    4. Brady can't throw the deep out, hardly even attempts it.
    5. Put Brady on the Lions. Or the Rams. Or, worse, the raiders or the Bills. Or maybe even the Jets. How many games does he win? I honestly do not think Brady does much with most other teams.
    6. Here are Brady's chokes, since Manning's "chokes" are documented:
    2001: AFC Playoff, fumbles game away...fumble is called a "tuck."
    2005: AFC playoff: 100-yard pick 6 that seals Denver's win
    2006: AFC Divisional Playoff: Throws a fourth-down, game-ending pick against SD while trying to tie the game late. But, wait...the moronic LB tries to run it back and FUMBLES!!!! Brady's butt is saved and he gets another chance and ties the game, eventually winning in OT. Still, Brady did choke.
    2006: AFc Championship Game: Brady tries to lead Pats on game-winning drive in the final minute and throws the pick to seal it. Afterward he whines that he didn't have the receivers. Two months later, Welker and Moss were on the roster.
    2007: SB XLII: 4 and out on the final drive, because he needed to get the ball DOWN FIELD fast. Couldn't do it. (See how Warner managed to, at least to some degree) a year later.
    2009: Abysmal vs Ravens. Loss.
    2010: Abysmal vs Jets. Needed two scores late and was still doing dink and dunk and took too long to score. At one point, on 4th and 10, with game on line, threw a horrible sideline pass that sailed over the receiver's head and that did it.
    2011: SB XLVI: Missed Gronk badly on a deep pass. Picked. The real choke came with Welker open, deep, and he missed him. Welker took the blame for a bad throw. In that situation, sorry, the "GOAT" hits the receiver between the numbers. I know Bradshaw would have.
    2012: With a chance to put Ravens away, Brady can't complete 3rd and 10 (again) and Pats lose.

    I am not listing these "chokes" to disparage Brady at all. I hate to even call them that. But Manning hasn't really choked all that more than Brady has. It's a team game.

    How much is all about team???

    Brady could easily by 1-5 in Super Bowls--he has three wins all enabled by a Vinatieri FG, a botched Carolina kickoff, and a messed up Seattle goal-line play. But he could also be 6-0, if not for a Tyree miracle catch (or Samuel missed pick) and a Manningham miracle catch. Brady doesn't win (or lose) games by himself.
     
  22. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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    All this talk about goats has me hungry for birria!!
     
  23. AFan

    AFan Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I'm on a Steeler msg board where people are arguing that QBs DON'T win championships, Teams DO. And you can't judge a QBs greatness solely by playoff sucess. It's like a Twilight Zone episode.

    I'll see how how fast this arguement goes out the window, when the topic changes to Ben's place in history instead of Brady's.
     
  24. TerribleTowelFlying

    TerribleTowelFlying Staff Member Site Admin Mod Team

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  25. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    QBs get "wins" on their stats. Also Brady was right to complain after that 06 game because the idiot Reshea Caldwell dropped a ball on a busted coverage that would have sealed the game. The tuck rule is not his fault. Other teams have been screwed by that too. Also he has an excellent o line and you can't downgrade a guy for playing behind a good o line. There are other qbs that have good o lines and don't do jack. Brady puts the ball where it is supposed to go the majority of the time and that's his job. Even if he's not the GOAT, which I'm not saying he is, I don't see how a guy that has all the Super Bowl td records and completion record and most yards record is not considered the best big game qb of all time. Also his regular season stats are impressive as well. His body of work is great.
     

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