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Is Brady now the greatest ever?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by JackAttack 5958, Feb 1, 2015.

  1. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    I have said all along that Brady needed a big, game-winning TD pass to cement his legacy. He sort of got that. It wasn't a 20-yarder, but it was there. And the Pats overcame a 10-point fourth quarter deficit against that team. That's impressive.

    But I wonder how things might have turned out differently if Lane and Avril had not gone down and if Chancellor were 100%. The loss of Avril was especially huge.

    I just get red in the face when we talk about QBs winning, as though the other 21 starters on defense and offense had nothing to do with it. When the Pats' D takes the field, Brady isn't even out there. I'd say that the QB influences about 10-20% of the game. That's it. A QB can throw a perfect pass, watch it bounce off the receiver's hands, and end up a pick 6 (as Peyton Manning). Likeise, a QB can throw a bad pass and watch the receiver make an unbelievable catch (as I saw happen to Brady a lot last night). Brady throws the passes...what happens after that is out of his hands.
     
  2. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    I'm gonna text Tommy and tell him the next time he's in the big dance to throw it downfield more to appease the haters. LOL. I'm sure he will get right on that.
     
  3. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    Truth is I don't like Brady either. But I do have the ability to be objective and praise a quarterback and team when warranted and I can also be critical of players on the Steelers or the team in general when warranted. I think there are those that will never give Brady credit because of their passionate hatred of the guy. I hate him as a player too but I respect what he's been able to accomplish in his career and appreciate the fiery competitiveness that he's demonstrated throughout his career. I hope we can all agree on and appreciate the fact that we have the opportunity to watch one of the greatest, if not the greatest, quarterback in history play the game.
     
  4. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Lets stay with modern day QB's for the sake of this argument since comparing different eras is pretty useless.

    Rodgers vs Brady.

    Easy choice for me, Rodgers, I think he is the best QB in the game today. He throws a better football than Brady, he can do the quick underneath throws like Brady, throws one of the best damn deep balls Ive ever seen, dead accurate when throwing on the run and can evade the rush like nobodies business. Brady cant do those last two things, so for me, why wouldn't I think Rodgers is better???
     
  5. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    He's just a guy that's really polarizing and won't be appreciated in his own time. I know the feeling man. LOL.
     
  6. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you have to admit that the wow factor on a three-yard TD pass, under no duress, isn't quite the same as a 70-yard bomb in the face of a blitz in which you get concussed.

    Regardless, you kind of missed the point.
     
  7. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    Rodgers can throw the deep out. Brady rarely attempts them.
     
  8. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I just got into a long drawn out discussion with 12to88 recently about Brady and I was defending him, but hes not the best ever. So dont go implying that people dont have the ability to be objective just because they have a different opinion than yours.
     
  9. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    I understand that Brady isn't "mechanically" the best but his strengths are what ultimately matters and he has those in spades. He's a team player. He doesn't care to hand the ball to Jonas Gray if that's what it takes to win. Some qbs would pout about crap like that. He's also great in the clutch moments. Rodgers had his opportunity and missed it against Seattle. Also Brady's pocket awareness is every bit as good as what Rodgers' is. You saw what happened when Rodgers became one dimensional and his one dimension wasn't good enough to get it done as Brady's one dimension was. Brady is an excellent worker and it shows. He seems to always get better. I think Aaron Rodgers is phenomenal and is at the top of his game right now. I don't see him walking away with 4 Lombardi's though. People talk about how Brady just hits "wide open receivers" as though that's a drawback but Rodgers has guys running free in their scheme all day long. It's beyond ridiculous to suggest that a qb shouldn't throw it to the most open guy. Also if you watch the film from last night you MIGHT find that Brady was throwing it to the ONLY open guy. Do you honestly fault him for that? Or any other qb for that matter? If you try and force things against a d like he played last night you are gonna lose. Period. If we had the same exact gameplan people around here would be praising how we neutralized it and all that.
     
  10. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    But why would he want to get concussed? If you watch that game last night again you will see that Brady got hit a lot. He stands in the pocket and takes it. They got to him a lot.
     
  11. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Lol, I'm done with this, enjoy your man crush :thumbs_up:
     
  12. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not implying anything. Go back and read this discussion. I think it's clear that there are those that would rather have a root canal without being numbed than to give credit to Brady for anything. There are some that almost seem shocked that the question would even be asked. I think it's a fair question and subject to debate. I don't take issue with the fact that you don't think he's the greatest ever, I certainly respect that position. But you and others seem to go out of your way to somehow diminish Brady's accomplishments. He may or may not be the best ever, but give the guy some credit, will ya? :facepalm:
     
  13. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I don't buy that, Brady was hit a lot...he took a few, he avoided a few as well with some good footwork in the pocket.

    Look I don't think anyone is denying that Brady is a 1st ballot HOF QB. But the question is being asked is he the best ever and many say NO, including me.

    To me it is really simple - I do not get too caught up in championships being the basic 80%+ criteria on what makes a QB outstanding. It is important, but not the only sole argument. You can hate Peyton Manning all you want, but the fact remains that the year he went down the Colts went 2-14, that is like a 11 game swing. Peyton went to the Broncos and they automatically went from a middle road team to basically one of the 3 to 4 teams with a legit shot at winning it all. The year Brady went out, the Pats went 11-5 barely missing the playoffs and that was with Matt Cassel! So maybe just maybe having another 21 guys around you who are good makes a difference too.

    We get it, Brady is to be respected for killing you with a 1000 surgical cuts - but to make those 1000 cuts work it takes a brain trust (namely BB) that ensures all the pieces are there to make the machine work. That is why the Patriots one game will activate Jonah Gray and he'll rush for 100 yards and the next week he is inactive. So the point is - would Brady be as good somewhere else where he doesn't have that much support in ensuring all those other pieces are perfectly in place. I am not so sure he would.
     
  14. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    I am not making myself clear. So I should just start over.

    1. Brady is a great QB. period.
    2. Brady did a fourth quarter hatchet job on a great D in the Super Bowl. We all have to admit that.
    3. Any discussion of GOAT is difficult to make when it comes to QBs because there are so many other factors involved.
    4. If the game winner had been an OH MY GOD pass play, then that would have made any case for Brady as GOAT a little easier to make.
    5. Belichick is one helluva coach, and I wonder how much Brady's success is due to BB. But same could be said of Montana-Walsh
     
  15. steel1031

    steel1031 Well-Known Member

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    I would also like to know how much of their success is due to breaking the rules but we will never know
     
  16. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    With one caveat to this. Montana was a guy with great mobility. Remember Montana's best known play that started the 49ers dynasty, moving to the sideline and throwing a perfect pass on the run to Dwight Clark to beat the Cowboys. Ask yourself if you think Tom Brady could ever make a throw like that - I don't think he could.

    So my point is Montana played well in Walsh's system, but he also had plenty of talent. When he went to the Chiefs late in his career he lifted that team into being a playoff contender and he did that in the later stages of his career when he was supposedly washed up.
     
  17. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I've given Brady plenty of credit, and unlike you, don't dislike him, but he's not the best ever and might not even make the top 10. I listed 7 off the top of my head who I feel are better, if I spent time on it, could probably come up with more.
     
  18. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    If pinned down to it, I'd rank Elway as the best I ever saw: from arm to athleticism to competitiveness.
     
  19. SGSteeler

    SGSteeler Well-Known Member

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    Brady not top 10??? Idk about GOAT, but to keep him out of the top 10 all time is just ridiculous. Come on Blast haha

    He's currently not what he once was, but the guy in incredible. He's done more with less than just about anybody. The year they were stacked he came a helmet catch away from winning every single game...
     
  20. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Why ridiculous? In all of NFL history? I mean if you dont agree with the 7 I came up with, thats fine but for my own personal list, I only need 3 more. Bart Starr is one, now 2 more. Aikman? Maybe, Peyton? Maybe. I haven't even mentioned Ben yet! I've purposely kept him out of the discussion though, you know what a dumpster fire that creates :lolol:
     
  21. SGSteeler

    SGSteeler Well-Known Member

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    Idk it's hard to cross that generation gap when the QB position was way different even 15 years ago, let alone in the 60's and 70's. I get what you're saying tho. I do think he merits a consideration because in the recent generation of QB's (last 15 years or so) there is only one who comes close (Peyton) and Brady has out performed him when it counts (playoffs, Super Bowls) and in head to head match ups. Rodgers still has more career left to pass him, and very well might.

    i guess we just disagree lol your list and mine wouldn't match up... Mines a lot shorter hahah but yes, it is definitely a good idea not to bring up our boy Ben. He also has a lot of career left to make his own case for greatness.
     
  22. 12to88

    12to88 Well-Known Member

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    Well, this will add fuel to the fire, won't it?

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2015/super-bowl-xlix-quick-reads

    Check the stat that says Brady's average pass traveled just 5.9 yards, an average completion of just 3.6 yards.

    And then there's this part: 60% of the passing yards came after the catch.

    Unreal.

    I am not trying to suggest anything much more than to say that it's a team game, for which the QB gets way too much credit or blame.
     
  23. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Peyton! LOL!!! Greatest choke artists? Yeah probably.
     
  24. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't matter if the Seahawks defense was better than the Cardinals you gave your reasons why Brady was the MVP. So my response to your reasons was no dice because yes he set the record for completions in a SB not a hugely glaring stat but I will give Brady credit for slinging the ball a lot on short pass after short pass. Next the setting the record for most TD's in superbowls, I'm sorry but that is a cumulative stat and not something that says he was the most valuable player on the field last night. I would hope if he played in 6 superbowls and won 4 that he would have some numbers that a lot of QB's don't just by virtue of being in the game so much. The four TD's? I saw three of them and they were pedestrian not spectacular but again should they have to be? Well yes if you win the MVP I would hope you'd have a game that stands out where you threaded the ball into double coverage for a shoe tapping TD, or eluded pressure to complete a third down and extend the drive, that you have somehow transcended the game. It shouldn't be the guy who seemed to be above average in the game more than the rest of the guys were average. Lastly the beating the best defense possibly ever is a myth, this was a team that let the Rams almost beat them, had to hope and pray for some ref calls/noncalls and a collective brain fart by the Packers to get back to the Superbowl and they were masking several injuries in their secondary as well as suffering losses in the game, they weren't an elite defense especially when they kept giving the Pats that cleared out zone for the little dumpoff to Vereen. Again Brady played well not saying he didn't but he was given MVP based on past glory, name recognition and the fact that no one person stood out above his average accomplishments.
     
  25. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    I will give credit where credit is due. I think Tom Brady is a very good QB that landed in the perfect spot and with the perfect coach that together have worked greatness. I don't know of two people that could have done as much as those two have done with less supporting cast. As long as they remain together I think Brady will continue to be successful. However I don't see that success going beyond the confines of the Pats with BB, I just don't and he may never have to but agian it is a perfect storm type of situation.
     

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