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Is Antonio Brown the Steelers greatest WR ever?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by saturdaysarebetter, Jul 26, 2018.

  1. tyler christopher

    tyler christopher Well-Known Member

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    I am talking now not all-time........ Randy moss is probably top 2 greatest receivers ever in his prime years........
     
  2. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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  3. AFan

    AFan Well-Known Member

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    would anyone argue that if AB was on the '70s teams replacing Swann or Stallworth, that they wouldn't have won the SBs that they did?

    Would anyone argue that if Hines, Swaan Or StallWorth had been on the last 5 teams instead of AB, that the Steelers that they'd have won a SB?

    To me, with AB the Super 70s team would have won at least as much as they did. If the other guys had replaced AB in recent years, they don't win anymore playoff games than they did.

    People like to think the winning titles just goes to show the hidden grit and determination that the guys who won had and that the guys who lost didn't. I've always been unconvinced about this. Sometimes, your a lucky stiff who player offense on a team that had 4 HOF guys on defense, and 3 more on offense.

    Put Bradshaw,Harris, Stallworth and Swann on the field with this D and NE still kicks their ass in the '16 AFCCG.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I acknowledged Stallworth's role in the victory against the Rams. You bringing it up again in that sentences is a deflection from your error. You missed badly on an important fact.

    It's not a try. It's an accurate point that you failed to properly refute. The difference in the players is a matter of degree. You're putting too much weight on team accomplishments, which is a problem when comparing quarterbacks and pure foolishness when comparing just about any other position, including wide receiver. As I said, you are giving Stallworth, Swann and Ward credit for having better teammates around them. I am judging those three and Brown by what they do as individuals.

    You don't like Dilfer? It's a valid point, but there are others that work. By your logic, Troy Aikman was better than Dan Marino. By your logic, Jim Plunkett was better than Dan Marino. Hell, Plunkett started for two Super Bowl championship teams and he was the MVP once! Better put Joe Theismann ahead of Marino on your list. Phil Simms won a Super Bowl MVP. So did Doug Williams and Mark Rypien.

    So, by your logic, Troy Aikman, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann, Phil Simms and Mark Rypien were all better than Dan Marino. :)
     
  5. tyler christopher

    tyler christopher Well-Known Member

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    Finally someone that gets it..................
     
  6. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    I did miss badly on the Stallworth MVP comment. Please forgive my error. Maybe you can petition the High Court of Steeler Fandom to have my fan card revoked for 30 days and then put me on indefinite probation with eternal banishment as the penalty should I make an egregious factual error like that again. :rolleyes: And you say that I failed to "properly refute" the fact that it's less of a stretch to believe that Swann and Stallworth are greater than AB than it is to believe that Dilfer is greater than Marino? Okaaaay... :thumbs up: :lolol::roflmao:

    But I did not miss on the fact that Stallworth is in the HOF. As is Lynn Swann.

    Is Plunkett in the HOF? Theismann? Simms? Rypien? Aikman is in the HOF and there are probably those who would argue (Cowboy fans mostly) that he was a greater quarterback than Marino because he's a Super Bowl winner and in the HOF. I think that would be a foolhardy argument, but still.

    Do you really think it's that much of a stretch for someone to believe that Swann and Stallworth are greater receivers than AB? AB is a great and a mega-talented receiver, I'm not debating that at all. My point is that it's not as much of a stretch to argue that Swann and Stallworth are GREATER receivers than AB at this point because of the role they played in the Steelers FOUR Super Bowl victories AND that they are HOFers. I've acknowledged that AB may be the most talented receiver in Steelers history because he works harder and is one of the most driven individuals ever to don the Black & Gold. I am VERY happy he's on our team.

    It may be a matter of semantics, but I don't view AB as a GREATER WR than Swann or Stallworth. I guess I need to remind you again that in Pittsburgh Steeler nation, GREATNESS is best achieved by being part of a Super Bowl winning team. Until AB is part of a Super Bowl winner, he may remain the most talented receiver the Steelers have ever had (and a great receiver), but in the hierarchy of greatness as measured by Super Bowl contributions, I'll put Swann and Stallworth ahead of him. May be re-thinking Hines a little bit even though I think Hines was arguably the greatest football PLAYER the Steelers have ever had (those pesky semantics again that you seem to have trouble with :)). I really hope that at the end of his career, we can all agree that AB is the greatest, but in order to achieve that in my mind it's going to take him contributing to a Super Bowl or two. :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  7. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but being part of the Pittsburgh Steeler nation does not mean checking intellect and logic at the door, no matter what some Ravens fans might think.

    This much is clear. You are judging wide receivers by who they played with. I am judging them by what they did and do. That is part of why my argument holds up so much better than yours, but it is not the entire reason.

    That is one dodge and one whiny rant about your error on Stallworth. Part of holding your own in a debate is knowing your stuff. You made an error. Just admit it and move on rather than whining about me catching you.

    You are the one who brought Super Bowl championships into the debate. I gave you a long list of quarterbacks who have started and won Super Bowls, some of them darn good players. You made a big fuss about Super Bowl MVP awards. Sure, that is only a factor for Ward and Swann, not Stallworth as you initially asserted, but you brought it up. Simms has one MVP and two rings, though he was hurt and didn't play in the second Super Bowl. Rypien has one MVP. So does Doug Williams. Plunkett has one of those and two rings. No, they aren't Hall of Famers and that is the point. You want to make Super Bowl wins and MVP awards the be-all and end-all here and by that logic, all of those guys are ahead of Marino. Of course, I know that you agree with me that Marino was better than all of those guys, which points to one flaw in your logic.

    Now you give us the snarky line about Swann and Stallworth being in the Hall of Fame. I understand the snark as a defense mechanism, so let's focus on the content. First, Ward isn't in the Hall and doesn't seem likely to ever get there, but you still want him ahead of Brown. Second, how does that fit with what you said about Aikman? You called the argument that he was better than Marino "foolhardy." Aikman is a Hall of Famer. His teams won three Super Bowls and he was MVP once. His overall numbers in Super Bowls are excellent. He has all that Super Bowl greatness going for him that Marino lacks. Like Brown's career so far, Marino only played in one Super Bowl and his team lost.

    Do you want to compare Marino's regular season numbers to Aikman's to salvage your anti-foolhardy argument? Fantastic. But let's stack up Swann, Stallworth and Ward against Brown, too.

    You're going with your gut instead of logic here and you're putting who these guys played with ahead of what they actually did during their careers, except when you contradict yourself by saying the argument for Aikman over Marino is foolhardy. I agree with you on that bit. Marino was better than Aikman. Marino didn't get to play with a dominant offensive line. Marino didn't get to play with the NFL's all-time leading rusher. Marino didn't get to play with outstanding defenses.

    Of course, Brown isn't playing with four other Hall of Famers on offense as Stallworth and Swann did. Sure, I think Roethlisberger will be in the Hall of Fame and Bell could get there if his body holds up and he stays away from the marijuana, but he is far from a sure thing, but does that actually stack up with Roethlisberger, Harris and Webster, not to mention having each other? More importantly, where are the Hall of Famers on defense? You argued that the Steelers don't win the Super Bowl against the Rams. How many of those championships do they win without Joe Greene? How many do they win without Jack Lambert, Mel Blount and Jack Ham? How many do they win without Chuck Noll as coach, or do you want to put Tomlin up on Noll's level?

    I love the legacy of the Steelers of the '70s, too, but I'm not blinded by it.
     
  8. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    Please see my responses above. :smiley1:
     
  9. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Actually, there was nothing ridiculous at all about the Dilfer comparison. It is a logical extension of your argument. I just threw more names at you to further support my argument and show just how wrong you are about this. I notice that you ducked the bit about Aikman because you can't refute it. When you claim Stallworth and Swann are greater than Brown due to their Super Bowl championships, but Aikman isn't greater than Marino, you are contradicting yourself. That, and your Stallworth error, are more than enough to show you don't really know what you are talking about.

    Clearly I was asking a rhetorical question about Tomlin and Noll. I don't think anybody here would be foolish enough to say Tomlin is anywhere close to Noll.

    Your logic is flawed. Mine is not. It's that simple. Anybody else who judges players by their teammates rather than their own accomplishments is every bit as wrong as you are in this discussion. I never said Stallworth and Swann weren't important parts of those teams. What continues to elude you is that they had far better supporting casts than Brown. That is why they have more rings. Put Brown in place of either of those guys and the Steelers still win four Super Bowls in the '70s.

    I'm sorry this is too complicated for you to understand. I'll leave you to wallow in your lack of understanding.
     
  10. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    1:09am. Hmmm. You must have been really fatigued when you responded to my last response to your response to my response to....:lolol:

    Did you even watch Super Bowls X, XIII and XIV? Do you honestly believe that Stallworth and Swann were bit players in those Super Bowl wins? It seems that way given that you want to give most of the credit to their outstanding supporting cast. The FACT of the matter is that Swann and Stallworth were both KEY CONTRIBUTORS in those wins and you could make an argument that they would not have won all of those games had Swann and Stallworth not stepped up big time and delivered at crucial times during those contests. And we can hypothesize all day about whether or not AB could have taken a ride in the DeLorean or taken a Quantum Leap and been just as effective as either of those two if he were inserted into one of those slots. Maybe he would have. Maybe he wouldn't have. Maybe he would have been better. Maybe he would have been worse. Go ahead and keep living in your little hypothetical world and I'll reside in the land of reality. My lack of understanding? Puhlease! Your minimization of Swann's and Stallworth's contributions in those games demonstrate YOUR lack of understanding! And if you can't understand that it's WAAAY more ridiculous to suggest that Dilfer is greater than Marino than it is to suggest that Swann and Stallworth are greater than AB then I can't help you, friend.

    Anyway, at this point we're just going around in circles and your utter arrogance and obnoxious superiority complex is astounding as well as off-putting. So I think we'll just agree to disagree. I have my opinion and you have yours. I believe Swann and Stallworth are greater than AB and you believe otherwise. Good day, sir. :hi:
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  11. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I accept your surrender.

    I certainly agree that we disagree, but that's because you are wrong. This post just proves it because you are resorting to a straw man argument. I never said Swann and Stallworth were bit players in the Super Bowl victories. You made that up because it's something you can argue against. I never minimized their contributions. In fact, I'm the one who said Stallworth easily could have been MVP of Super Bowl XIV against the Rams, though you were the one who mistakenly wrote that he actually got it.

    So that is one misleading point and one factual error. Then there is the dishonesty in bringing up Dilfer again, thus running away from the comparison of Aikman and Marino. You can't beat that one and you know it, so you run from it. You said it was foolhardy to argue that Aikman was better than Marino, but he has the same Super Bowl argument in his favor that you keep using to prop up your argument for Swann and Stallworth and Aikman is a Hall of Famer in his own right.

    What I'm saying and you aren't getting is that Brown is doing everything and more than Swann and Stallworth, but he doesn't have the same team success because he doesn't have as much talent around him. Swann and Stallworth had each other. They had Hall of Famers at quarterback, running back and center. They had a Hall of Fame head coach. They had a dominant defense with four more Hall of Famers.

    It comes down to that simple point. You are judging these guys based on their teammates as much as their own accomplishments. I'm judging them on what they actually did and what Brown is still doing. That is where your lack of comprehension comes in.

    I am arrogant. It comes with being right. I comes with being able to have an honest discussion rather than having to misrepresent the other side, which is what you just did. It comes from taking on everything the other guy says rather than running from his strongest points, which you just did. It comes from not including significant factual errors in my arguments the way you did. It is my argument that is superior to yours. And if this all seems a bit rude, you earned it by misrepresenting my points. I don't have much tolerance for that sort of dishonesty.

    Good day to you, too, sir.
     
  12. HeinzMustard

    HeinzMustard Well-Known Member

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    Formerscribe = big bag of hot air

    blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah x 1,000
     
    • Hilarious Hilarious x 1
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  13. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    :lolol:
    Actually he's a pretty good debater. But that's okay, I like the back the forth and it's always interesting to debate someone with such an extreme sense of self-importance and intellectual invincibility. Frustrating, but interesting nonetheless. Never thought I'd illicit that kind of response from expressing my OPINION that Swann and Stallworth are greater receivers (at this point) than AB. :shrug:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    For me personally I’d take Ward, Stallworth and Swann over AB. I love AB, but those other guys better fit the qualities I like in a player.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Somebody's still mad about me correctly identifying him as this board's very own Chicken Little. That's all this post is, an attack on a poster. If you have something of substance to say regarding the topic, by all means join in.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    The debate is important, not me. I do understand that losing a debate can be frustrating for you, but you will get over it. :)

    I am far from invincible, but I have been intellectually honest in this discussion. I didn't misrepresent anything you wrote. As far as I know, I didn't include any factual errors in my argument. You did have one significant factual error and you did misrepresent my argument. When you attacked my Dilfer example, I gave you others that were even better. You ran from them, especially the comparison of Aikman and Marino. You also falsely claimed that I portrayed Swann and Stallworth as bit players in those Super Bowls when I'm the one who said that Stallworth could have easily been MVP of Super Bowl XIV.

    And let's be clear, the Dilfer argument is shorthand, one that pops up in discussions of the importance of Super Bowl rings in evaluating football players all the time. He is a great example of a guy who wasn't particularly good who has a Super Bowl ring. He is an example used to warn about the danger of overvaluing team performance in a discussion of individual value.

    This is a message board. Debating things is the entire point. If you don't want your opinions challenged, you probably shouldn't post them.
     
  17. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    I'll continue to post my opinions and don't mind at all if they're challenged. You, on the other hand, seem to have a major issue with your opinions being challenged. My OPINION is that Swann and Stallworth are greater receivers than AB. Your (wrong) OPINION is that AB is greater than Swann and Stallworth.

    Geez, Heinz was right. You really are a bag of hot air and need to get over yourself. At this point, you're :beathorse:
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Why is this even a debate? We all know DHB is the greatest ever but just has not been utilized properly by any OC correctly in 9 years. :cool:
     
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  19. D0bre Shunka

    D0bre Shunka Well-Known Member

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    All yeah, Swanny and him. AB will come out on top in the end. Hines, my fav, is the best slot receiver ever.
     
  20. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    You keep responding, yet you want to put it all on me. That is yet another misleading statement by you, and you punctuate it with a personal dig at me.

    I'll stand by my honest and correct responses. Thank you.
     
  21. JackAttack 5958

    JackAttack 5958 Well-Known Member

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    My apologies. I did get somewhat personal and I'm sorry about that. I usually try not to go there.

    It was a good debate but I don't think either of us are willing to concede defeat. Of course, any objective reading of our previous discourse on this thread will clearly reveal that I won the debate. ;)

    We also are not going to come to an agreement as to who the Steelers greatest receiver is at this point in time. At the end of the day, AB may turn out to be the greatest in Steeler history but he still has a few mountains to conquer first.

    At any rate, nothing personal and I look forward to more lively discussion with you in the future.
     
  22. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    I take Brown's receiving yards and receptions with a grain a of salt. The era is totally different. Ward and Swan did it in a run first offense. Brown is in the era were defense is no longer allowed and teams are passing at historic rates. Swan and Stallworth had to deal with DB's holding them, DBs and safeties taking their heads off on every pass play, and it was actually allowed to hit a QB. Not saying Brown isn't awesome. He is. He probably has the best ball skills I've ever seen but Ward, Swan, and Stallworth weren't exactly slouches. All 3 have a nice highlight reel of amazing catches.

    I'd say the top 3 are:

    Ward - SB mvp, did in a rushing offense, was clutch as the come, had a key role in winning SB's, and didn't always have the best QB's throwing to him. The ultimate team player at a WR position. Intimidated the defense.
    Swan - different era when defense ruled, physical play in the NFL was on an entirely different level. was clutch and had amazing ball skills also. we probably don't have 4 SB rings in the 70's with out Swan.
    Brown - he's a highlight reel machine. amazing ball skills and brings it every game. Just needs to finish his career strong and he could take the #1 spot. Needs a ring IMO to over take Ward and Swan. Those 2 played a key role in winning SB's. Brown has come up short for reasons probably out of his control. I'd say he's not the best team player also.
     
  23. MadtownDruankard

    MadtownDruankard Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree - I do think Ward and Swan could have made they case that they were the best WR's in the league during their careers. You are basing this on receiving yards. Did the lead the league in recieving yards? NO but that's not the litmus test. Put Ward or Swan on a pass first offense and they would have been leading the league in yards. Imagine Swan catching balls from Marino? Or Ward catching balls from Brady or Joe Montana? THeir stats would have no doubt been every bit as amazing as Browns or many other HOF WR's.

    Besides the fact that defenses were allowed to crush WR's and QB's on any given play. Brown only has to worry about Burfict.
     
  24. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Apology accepted and I'm sure there will be more to come. I won't bring up my clear victory here again. ;) I'll let my points on the next one stand on their own.
     
  25. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Swann wasn't even the Steelers' best receiver in that era. Stallworth was better.

    I've already beaten the ring argument into the dirt. Aikman or Marino. Who ya got? 'Nuff said.
     
  26. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Swann wasn't even the Steelers' best receiver in that era. Stallworth was better.

    I've already beaten the ring argument into the dirt. Aikman or Marino. Who ya got? 'Nuff said.
     

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