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I was wrong about Hargrave

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by bigbenhotness, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Contrary to what the naysayers believe, Hargrave is one of the best Nose Tackles in football. The issue is not him. The issue is the League's evolution. The Nose Tackle simply does not have a place in the modern NFL anymore as it did 20 years ago.



    That being said, I will agree with the naysayers on one aspect; Keith Butler. Why he cannot put the best 11 on the field puzzles me. For that matter, why can't Hargrave sub in for Tuitt every now and then is even more unusual.
     
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  2. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    I think he’s out of position at the nose. He’s a good nose, but would be an awesome 3 tech.
     
  3. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    This. Plus Bud, Davis, Spencer, Williams all played a significant roll in that loss.

    Heyward wasn't the problem.
     
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  4. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    Heyward wasn't the problem in that game, but the top players step up and define their career in a situation like that(like Joey Porter vs IND in 06, or JH in the SB). Especially in a game like JAX, where one play in the 4th quarter could have made the difference.
     
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  5. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Heyward didn't have LeBeau finding a flaw in the opponent's blocking scheme to give him two free runs at the quarterback, which is what happened for Porter against the Colts in '06.

    Heyward's quiet day against the Jaguars was disappointing, but ignoring his outstanding play overall the last two seasons while focusing on that one game is ridiculous.
     
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  6. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    I wasn't ignoring anything he's done. He's good, not great (yet?). The great ones find a way. When I think of Joey Porter, I think of those 2 signature sacks, not the coaching behind them. Those 2 sacks defined his career at the time. JH, countless career defining plays. Troy P, the same. On and on. Heyward...not so much (yet).
     
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  7. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Biggest area I do agree with regarding that whole "one player" aspect was the lack of adjustments by Keith Butler after Shazier went down.



    I understand Defensive Coordinators do need "that guy" on their side. However, to not have a failsafe for said option, doubly so given Shazier's previous injury history prior to December 7th of 2017, is ENTIRELY on the likes of Tomlin and Butler.
     
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  8. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm just not as impressed by what guys do when they aren't blocked at all as you are.
     
  9. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    Obviously.
     
  10. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I'm sure if Heyward was given a free pass to the QB as Porter received, he too could have had a defining moment. Unfortunately, he was double teamed much of the game, IIRC.

    Also, comparing an OLB to a DE in a 3-4 defense isn't exactly fair.
     
  11. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    As I stated, Heyward wasn't the problem in that game.
    The players position is irrelevant.
     
  12. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it's very relevant. Defensive linemen very rarely get free runs to the quarterback like that. Outside linebackers get them more often, especially when you have an excellent coaching staff making an adjustment at a key moment. Those sacks by Porter were created by scheme, not anything special he did.
     
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  13. groutbrook

    groutbrook

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    You're missing my point. Forget Porter, bad example.
    His presence on the Steelers All-Time Team must be based on scheme too.:cautious:
     
  14. HeinzMustard

    HeinzMustard Well-Known Member

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    Martavis freakin' Bryant was the only one who I remember that stepped up that day. The rest of the team was asleep until the 3rd quarter.
     
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  15. HeinzMustard

    HeinzMustard Well-Known Member

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    Who is responsible for this? Answer: Coach Popcorn

    Steelers are not lacking in talent... even without AB and Bell. Coaching is a major deficiency.
     
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  16. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I get your point that a star player should step up in a big game. You just got my point, which is that Porter's game against the Colts in '06 was a bad example. Polamalu or Farrior would have been better ones for that day.

    To be clear, I wasn't questioning Porter's value over the course of his career. I thought he was a great player. You can make an argument that after Ham, Harrison, LLoyd and Greene, he is the best they've had at outside linebacker. I just thought those two plays didn't require anything special on his part.
     
  17. bigbenhotness

    bigbenhotness Well-Known Member

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    I personally think Butler is more of a liability than Tomlin. Butler is a great gameplanner and shuts down the opponent offense...until they adjust and he cant counter to save his life.
     
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  18. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    The offense came out & crapped their pants but then played like a playoff team (minus a few T. Haley head scratchers). Heyward & the defense never showed up.
     
  19. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    The whole offense stepped up that game against possibly the best defense in the league at the time. Ben gets demerits for being Ben but he also gets merit for being Ben. Defense was "Bortled". It will be his greatest game played in the NFL.
     
  20. bigbenhotness

    bigbenhotness Well-Known Member

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    Jags exploited a weakness and we kept sticking to the gameplan. at least try a different approach ya know?
     
  21. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    It looked more to me like they exploited our weak defense. Without the pass rush we were toast all that season (run d was horrid) & up to now. Yeah, Butler being an old dog didn't help.
     
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  22. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    That Jags team was built like a Cowher team. The Oline was physical and they would use 2 TE's and just maul teams. The playbook was so simple it was silly. They would pound the rock on 1st down, on second down and if it was less than three yards on third run it again. Once every 15 plays or so they would take a low percentage shot wit Bortles throwing it on first down. If it worked great if not right back to a 6 to 7 yard rush by Fournette and 3rd and manageable. When the Steelers D sold out to try and slow the rush is when Bortles actually made some nice PA throws. Last season that formula just wasn't as successful.
     
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  23. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Fournette was running over everyone that year, I had him on my fantasy team. Last year Fournette was hurt & not playing much.
     
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  24. bigbenhotness

    bigbenhotness Well-Known Member

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    any qb can do pretty well if the running back is carrying the team. Fourtnette, zeke, etc
     
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  25. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    The Steelers have made many Bortle-Tebow type QBs look like all-stars.
     
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