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How many saw the non PI call

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Justafan, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    This is why I am adamant about them changing pass int. to a 15yd penalty like in college.The calls are to inconsistent and can and do have a major impact in game results,which is not fair.How come offensive pass int. is only 10 yds but defense is spot foul.Most times the offensive player is just as guilty or even causes the interference with all the hand-checking they do. You can practically maim or injure someone and only get a 15yd personal foul penalty but if you interfere with a pass it can be 50yds or more sometimes .It doesn't make sense. I know some of you are going to say that all the defender will do is tackle his guy if he gets beat ,well so be it, it would just be part of the strategy of the game.The offense is at enough of an advantage.Either that or they need to make certain penalties or in this case non-penalties reviewable.
  2. ScottChab

    ScottChab Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    Ok, if bad calls don't go both ways in every game (which I'm not sure how anyone would know unless they saw contact by every player during every play of every game), how many of them actually decide the outcome? I'm willing to bet very few if any.
  3. cajunyankee

    cajunyankee Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    Yes they are. But only for the reason of evaluating the Officials and helping them improve. Also the Playoff & SB Officials are determined by this grading process.

  4. Justafan

    Justafan Member

    Jan 2, 2012
    Bad calls certainly influenced the Balto/Cincy game and the Detroit/GB numbers this week. And probably have influenced many more than "very few." Something that appears insignificant such as a 10-yd holding penalty influences play calling over what might have been. Penalties are a huge part of the game and incompetent refs cause more damage than is readily apparent.

    Like you, I have taken the high road for a long time and have given officials benefit of the doubt. But, come on. It is getting ridiculous!
  5. RobVos

    RobVos Well-Known Member

    Oct 16, 2011
    I actually enjoyed watching some of the bowl games where the players are still allowed to "hit" It was nice to see the players hitting without all the flags. They have a much better review system too...
  6. Cbus Steelers

    Cbus Steelers Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2011
    I think the problem with the non-PI call is that the official doesn't want to determine the outcome when there is one play that is so vital to the outcome. In the issue of pass-interference in a situation like this it is easier for an official to err on the side of caution and NOT throw the flag. They can always argue that contact was incidental, etc. and at least have some sort of way out of it. If they throw a flag and it is definitely not there, then they have no way to explain their blatantly botched call.

    Just a thought...it seems to go the opposite way of the big hits. There, it's easier for a ref to err on the side of caution and throw the flag, so they pretty much always do.

    Anyways, it was blatant PI and the ref was right there to see it. Should have called it, especially with the game in Cincy and no risk of fans going crazy on you.
  7. snipit73


    Oct 23, 2011
    Thanx I didn't know if they reviewed them after the game but I wasn't thinking they would review them during the game. Lord knows someone in the booth wouldn't wanna make them look like Chumps!!! :noose:
  8. Romans5:8

    Romans5:8 Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    I think bad calls and bad no-calls are more influential than they have ever been in the history of the league. Ray D listed all of the primary culprits--and they all have in common a good deal of "judgment." The worst of the bunch, imo, are PI and hits to "defenseless players." When these calls are made and when they are not made it significantly impacts a game. And during a time when there is so much parity among teams, those calls become extremely impactful.

    An example could be Pittsburgh's second game against Baltimore. Driving in Baltimore's territory, Ray Lewis hits a defenseless reciever (Hines Ward) helmet to helmet. Hines has to be helped off the field and does not return to the game. No penalty was called on Ray Lewis. It was an obvious breaking of the rules as they are written. Ray was subsequently fined for the illegal hit. Pittsburgh's drive is halted. They may have gotten a field goal out of it, but no TD for sure.

    IN THE SAME GAME, Baltimore is driving on its last possession, when Ryan Clark hits a defenseless receiver and makes helmet to helmet contact while doing so. A penalty is called on Ryan--15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul, automatic first down. Baltimore's drive continues and ends with a winning td pass. However, no play was more significant on that drive than the dropped pass that Ryan was penalized on.

    Now, regardless if one agrees with the defenseless receiver rules, there can be no doubt that the inconsistency of their implementation drastically had an impact on the outcome of that game. This is not an isolated example of inconsistent rule implementation that severely hurts some teams and greatly benefits others. Conspiracy? I don't believe so. But definitely not a level playing field either.
  9. Rush2seven

    Rush2seven Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    To me it was a blatant PI. There was a play earlier in that drive where they all but ripped off the QB's head. While there may not be a ref for each player, there should definitely be a ref watching the QB. You can't tell me if it was marcia that he wouldn't have gotten the call.

    We've been dealing with PI calls for many years. I can almost stomach them. But these defensless receiver calls are just total BS. Ryan Clark's hit to me was textbook. If that penalty isn't called, the Steelers have the week off to get healthy.
  10. Concussion

    Concussion Well-Known Member

    Oct 27, 2011
    The NFL is currently played in the land of the absurd. Some rules are so difficult to call, some plays are not called as penalties but fined. PI could be called every play and as has been said can result in big yardage, holding, helmet to helmet, defenseless receiver, late hit for pushing out of bounds, excessive celebration, taking your helmet off on the field, etc. Then you have the pass completion rules such that you cannot determine whether a catch or whether the ball was a forward pass without watching 16 different camera feeds frame by frame and then consulting a rule book.

    I wish they would get rid of the relay review. It as suppose to result in the refs making the proper calls but it has lead to so many rule changes since the game looks different in ultra slow motion that technology has worked to change the rules of the game. Just play it and call it on the field.
  11. americamade2012

    americamade2012 Active Member

    Jan 1, 2012
  12. ScottChab

    ScottChab Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    Sorry, I'm a stats/numbers/facts kind of guy. Someone saying that they think bad calls/no-calls influence the outcome of games means nothing unless it can be proven. Using your examples, there is no way that you can say for sure that if a penalty was called on Ray Lewis that the Steelers would have kicked a FG or scored a TD. They could have run the next play and thrown a pick 6 or fumbled for all we know. There is also no way that you can say that even if the H2H wasn't called on Clark that the Rats wouldn't have scored a TD anyway.

    Judgement calls are a part of the game and team live by them and die by them. I find it interesting that non-consipracy theory folks never point out calls/no-calls that go the Steelers way and say that they could have influenced the outcome when the Steelers win. Hmmm....
  13. AFan

    AFan Well-Known Member

    Oct 24, 2011
    Remember when we used to laugh at Seahawks fans for whining about the refs? I guess they didn't hate the Steelers back them, like they do now.
  14. mstng1863

    mstng1863 Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    At first I thought you were referring to the one where the Raisins T. Smith pushed off on us in the end zone to beat us in Pittsburgh. Of course, we were the ones called for pass interference on that play. I do not like to make an issue out of referring, but after seeing that injustice last week in Cincinnati, I will say it made me think.
  15. jhmiller3

    jhmiller3 Well-Known Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Help me out here please Scott. Why is it that you always, and I do mean always, take the side of the refs in these threads. Not saying there is any conspiracy or ANYTHING like that. All everyone here is saying, at least the way I read it, is that the officiating has gone way, way, WAY downhill over the last few years. YEs, there are times when it appears to be very one sided, but there are also times when it is just downright bad. Yet, time and time again you defend the officials and I, for one, would just like to know why. We (you and I) have had this conversation before, and you deny being a referee apologist. Really? Once again I ask, are you an official that has a soft spot for these guys? It sure seems to be.
  16. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    Yes, but it's not always that simple. In this game, the bad calls were like 5-0 in favor of Baltimore. It was too much to overcome. And yes, Cincinatti could have beaten them anyway by not allowing any points and by scoring more points, but at some point that becomes a cop-out. Teams should have the right to play football games without being hosed constantly. It's like trying to win a race with a cinderblock tied to your wrist.

    The refs cost them a chance to win the game the first time they met, too. One with the Gresham touchdown, which is a rule-based problem, and one on the Suggs sack. I know you have more faith in the honesty of the officials and league than anything else, but they have literally helped the Ravens win games, including the one they had to have in order to gain a massive advantage over Pittsburgh in the playoffs. You can definitely argue that's a coincidence, but whether it's coincidence or conspiracy, it's a fact either way. I don't think a "soft conspiracy" is so hard to believe or out of the question. They may not hand out pamphlets on how to screw over the Steelers, but it can be "known" what the higher ups want. A change.

    I don't think anyone can deny the double standard against the Steelers when it comes to things like personal fouls. I've seen Terrell Suggs do things that would get James Harrison kicked out of the league, and Suggs doesn't get so much as a flag or fine or mention. When the Steelers' defense take the field, the refs are constantly thinking about watching out for any big hit made by a defender. Their pre-game and in-game mindset is automatically different than it would be if it was a Jaguars-Cardinals game. Meanwhile, that disappears when our offense and QB take the field (we've also seen this happen with QBs like Vick, Tebow, Webb, etc.). The Ravens are mostly immune from this. I've seen Suggs clobber QBs in the head almost any chance he gets. Without thinking about it too much, there was the one against Ben in the playoffs last year (Baltimore returned the fumble for a TD), there was the clobber against Dalton in their first meeting this year right at the end of the game, the brutal facemask on Alex Smith at the end of that game... that's three right there. Then there was the malicious headslap a few weeks ago against a TE that was flagged. Scott, you're a huge believer in previous offenses, as you said again and again about Harrison (he deserved a suspension because of previous offenses). But come on, Suggs is doing MORE stuff and it's arguably WORSE, but he doesn't have a record at all for the lone reason that no one in the league seems to notice. He should have a record worse than Harrison's, but he doesn't. Why? If I ask are you going to tell me I sound like a whiny child not getting my way? If Harrison had committed a headslap like Suggs, which was clearly intentional and malicious, he'd be gone for the season. It's a double standard as clear as day. So what's the difference between that and a conspiracy? It's totally unfair either way. Like running a race with a cinderblock tied to you. And luck has nothing to do with it.

    And you're right about the fact that a lot of bad/no-calls lead to "what-if"s. Can't say for sure that the Bengals would have won that first game if the Suggs sack had been rightly penalized. But I can say that they would have had 1st and goal from the 7 or so instead of 3rd and goal from the 20. That's a really big "what-if." In one scenario, there is probably a 50% chance or better that they win. In the other, it drops to probably 5%. Those are estimates I just made up, but you get the idea. You're free to create your own. You like numbers/stats/facts, and I think those are pretty good ballparks. In any case, if you think the refs would have "missed" that obvious call if James Harrison was the one doing the clobbering, you're kidding yourself. For the Alex Smith sack, they probably only had about a 5% chance of winning anyway, and that play dropped it to 1%. Some are bigger than others. There are absolutely crap calls out there that cost teams games. But I don't know why you're waiting for them to literally apply 3 points in overtime from a Steelers' field goal to the Ravens' side of the scoreboard, thereby giving them the game (although if that did happen I'm sure you'd say it would be our fault for letting it go to overtime.) If the refs cost a team a chance to win a game, that's enough for me to be pissed. And I think that's a legit gripe.
  17. Joe Flacco

    Joe Flacco Member

    Jan 2, 2012
    You guys are ignoring the fact that AJ had a hand in Webb's face mask for a good 3-5 seconds while the ball was in the air. No ref is gonna call a PI on a hail mary to end the game when there is pushing and shoving on both sides.
  18. Joe Flacco

    Joe Flacco Member

    Jan 2, 2012
    Every team gets bad calls against them. Ravens have been dealing with it the whole season as well. The refs didn't let Ray Rice break two huge runs. The refs didn't miss a field goal for the Bengals.
  19. sologig

    sologig Well-Known Member

    Dec 4, 2011
    oh yes, as in the first game when Suggs had hands to the face and helmet of Dalton? come on man,you shoulda lost at home too!!!!
  20. 43FOLyfe!

    43FOLyfe! Well-Known Member

    Nov 27, 2011
    Very, VERY true!!
  21. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

    Oct 17, 2011
    I think people can deny it - fans of other teams frequently do. Are they right? No.

    They're not right because of the idea of repeat offending. The whole "repeat offender" idea that Goodell brought in has basically legitimised picking on certain players/Ds over others.

    (On a slight tengent, it reminds me a little of a soccer player in the 80's, John Fashanu. He was renouned as a dirty player, playing for the dirtiest team, and was always getting sent off or yellow carded. Then, suddenly, it stopped. What changed? Before every match, he researched the referees, and before kick off went up and had a friendly chat with them, asked them about their wife and kids etc. The refs decided he was a nice guy, and - purely coincidentally, of course - he stopped getting penalised all the time.)
  22. FeartheBeard

    FeartheBeard Well-Known Member

    Oct 26, 2011

    This is a STEELERS message board....You came to the wrong place if you are here to defend the Ravens ;-)
  23. FeartheBeard

    FeartheBeard Well-Known Member

    Oct 26, 2011

    THANK YOU! I wanted to say something too but couldn't come up with the right way to phrase it..... :clapping:
  24. ScottChab

    ScottChab Well-Known Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    I don't think I take the sides of the refs... they have sucked this year and they were bad last year as well. However, their poor performance isn't all their fault. They can only see so much, the NFL has told them that when in doubt, throw a flag and then sort it out (how many times do you see an official throw a flag, look at another official, have a discussion and then pick the flag up? I know I've seen it more and more this season than any other season) and they have also given them a crutch by allowing the use of instant replay.

    I'm not sure what you read in the post that you quoted that would give you the impression that I am an apologist. All I posted are some facts and some opinions based on info that I don't think can really be disputed, but if it can be disputed with facts/stats/numbers, please do so I can have a more informed opinion.

    I am not an official, never pretended to be one and don't want to be one.
  25. rukus4ever

    rukus4ever Well-Known Member

    Oct 24, 2011
    Here's my take on it:

    #1 - It's not a conspiracy. Sometimes certain players get favoritism. It's just part of life, not just sports. But that favoritism does not guarantee a win. And sometimes, human referees are going to make mistakes. It's part of sports and you have to live with it.

    #2 - It's avoidable. Playing error-free football takes the refs completely out of the game except for no-calls when the other team fouls you. This can be played through. Regarding basketball, my older brother always taught me, "When you have the ball expect to be fouled, and score anyway." On the defensive side, just don't commit any fouls and the refs can't do anything.

    #3 - Run the numbers. Take every penalty that was called against you and stack it up against all the opportunities you missed, in any given game, based on lack of execution, and I'm sure that 90+% of the time you will find that you shot your own self in the foot. For every 1 play that has a penalty attached to it there are probably 6-10 other plays in which there are no penalties associated and mere execution will win the day for you.

    #4 - The winner's attitude. Winners take to the field of play with a mental energy that overcomes any and all obstacles before them. This energy influences their physical performance and focuses their discipline. Whatever barriers present themselves, the winners find ways to go around, or through them. Do or die.

    Are some of the calls/no-calls pure garage? Of course they are. But every team deals with the madness. Play through it. Win in spite of it.

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