How does Mike Tomlin compare to other NFL head coaches? There's no doubt the standard has fallen.

IQs mean nothing...., or I would be rich.

 

Tomlin's penchant to lose to sub .500 teams (particularly on the road where we we're a near coin flip to win) and the way in which the team lost playoff games when they were heavily favored make me tend to believe that Tomlin is the correct scapegoat. Ben and the players wear some of the blame too, as they all played a part in it... but Tomlin wears it the same.

I'm excited about the re-build/reload as well, but I am cautiously optimistic. We know how Tomlin can inspire an underdog, but can he win again with a front-runner? Or will his playoff mediocrity follow us into the future? I also fear that the game has just passed him by. Is there still room for a pure "player's coach" in a league full of great offensive minds? It just feels like he's a relic of the early 2000's cosplaying in the modern era. Tomlin has clear strengths, but very clear weaknesses and those don't really align with the direction the league is taking with a heavy favoritism to the offense and creativity of game-planning. He's Junior Varsity at best in those departments and he simply refuses to get a young great mind to help move us forward into the future. These are more than fair criticisms and its hard to argue any of them as being a reach or seen through glasses of a "hater". I like Tomlin. I don't think he's a BAD coach or anything. But he has clear shortcomings and I think they stand in the way of us returning to a dominant force at the top. Only time will tell I guess, because MT doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

 

Name the playoff games lost against teams they were heavily favored against, where Ben didn’t get outplayed. This is my whole point, some of you want to scapegoat Tomlin for Ben’s shortcomings. The disappointing second half of Ben’s career was mainly due to the fact that the franchise chose to treat him as the center piece to build around, and he didn’t play up to the hype/expectations. When you’re supposed franchise atg QB who you’ve built the team around gets outplayed by guys like Tebow, Bortles, Mayfield, and Flacco in the playoffs, you’re going to have disappointing losses. If the Steelers had lost those playoff games despite Ben playing up to expectations then I understand your point of view more.

This is just ignorance. A lack of understanding of the game. You lash out at Tomlin because you’re not smart enough to understand the NFL. Sadly, this is true for a low of socalled “fans”. Tomlin has already proven that he can win.

I don’t see how any football fan with 2 working brain cells can see what happened with the Steelers last year and say “I fear the game has passed Tomlin by”. The team finished the year 6-2 with a rookie QB and the youngest offense in the league. Again, the youngest offense in the league. He clearly still has the ear of the guys, they still believe in him and they still follow him. It’s not just players on his team who look up to and respect him either. Players all over the league revere Tomlin. Even the guys who haven’t made it yet revere him. I’ve heard several stories of draft prospects praising Tomlin and talking about how much they respect him. It’s really telling that Tomlin gets so much more love and respect from fans outside of his teams’s base than from within it.

https://steelersdepot.com/2023/03/r...ning-over-players-like-cb-christian-gonzalez/

I say “franchise QB” when it comes to Ben because I don’t think that he was one. I think the decision to treat him like he was and build the team around him was a mistake that led to the underachieving that marks the second half of his career. Y’all blame Tomlin when it’s really it’s mainly on Ben.


Yes Ben has received some criticism, but not like Tomlin. Pat Pete was just chastised by the fan base for even suggesting that he wear #7. The same crowd has little to no respect/appreciation for Tomlin. This is my issue. Tomlin gets little to no respect from the fan base and it’s bad look on the fan base.

 

you make some valid points about Ben not playing up to expectations especially in the playoffs. How about how MTs defense got absolutely abused and embarrassed most of those games? All Bens turnovers I assume because it’s impossible for a D to rise to the occasion and stop the bleeding. They both deserve Blame but let’s see how MT does in year 2 without him. Got a feeling you MT backers need a century of data to convict.

 

Quarterbacks don't play one-on-one games with one another so that head-to-head nonsense is just that. Roethlisberger certainly had his failings, but to argue that a guy who is headed to the Hall of Fame wasn't a franchise quarterback is just ridiculous.

 

Are You serious???
OK let's look at that then...the Guys You named Ben didn't out play in the playoffs that they lost.
Bortles 214 yards 1td
Ben 469 yards 5 tds, and 1 int. Yet We lost. Yes totally Ben's fault...LoL Bortles totally outplayed Him. LoL.
Hell this is so ridiculous I'm not bothering with it anymore.

 

You beat me to it. You can pin the failures in the last decade on many, and some of that is definitely Ben, but to think this team would have been better without him...no. One of the problems with legends is they 'earn' the time to hang 'em up (or until its obvious). Despite Ben having one of his best years statistically, that last contract really put a damper on how the team was able to progress. Aging expensive line, limited running game, aging and more fragile QB, limited Cap and the window closes fast. Bottom line though, in his prime he was one of the best in the league, that's franchise QB.

 

The defenses that weren’t dominant and had some let downs were Tomlin’s defenses while Lebeau gets all the credit for the dominant legendary defenses huh? At what point do y’all acknowledge that the franchise switched the philosophy from being defense-first to offense-first? In the second half of Ben’s career the focus was on building the team around him. The team was purposely built to be led by the offense, not the defense.

I agree with you. The team suffered once the defense declined and the focus switched to offense. Once the defense declined to the point where they couldn’t carry the team and overcome some of Ben and the offense’s mistakes that’s when the inconsistency and underachieving began. It started in their last SB appearance.

I’m not saying that Tomlin is blameless. Obviously there’s plenty of room to criticize. I don’t see legit good faith based criticisms tho. I see slander and hate. I see unreasonable ignorant analysis.

Well at least you can read a box score. Now if only you were capable of watching and understanding the game. Maybe one day.

See, if you actually watched and understood what you were watching you’d know that those stats don’t tell the real story. That game was lost in the first half and the hole that the Steelers dug for themselves in the first half was mainly due to how flat Ben came out. His 2 first half turnover that led directly to 2 TDS took the air out of our team and gave the Jags great confidence and momentum. An offense with AB, Martavis, JuJu, Bell, and etc should’ve never came out flat like they did. Y’all want to scapegoat the coaching to excuse the veteran supposed atg hall of fame “franchise” QB.

What did you say here? Nothing. Obviously football isn’t a 1on1 game so don’t be obtuse.

The whole argument for Tomlin being at fault for the underachieving/disappointing last decade or so is that he had an atg “franchise QB”. Well I’m saying that the supposed atg franchise QB had a tendency to not play up to the hype when it mattered most. The team was built around Ben and the offense so how can you all complain about the second half of Ben’s career while also downplaying his average play and the fact that he got outplayed by QBs seen as lesser than in the playoffs?

I don’t want to bother with that format style

 

Shakespeare once wrote that "Brevity is the soul of wit." I don't always buy that, and given that it was Polonius saying it in Hamlet, I'm not sure Shakespeare entirely bought into the idea, either. At times, however, brevity is the proper response. One of those times is in response to a take as bad as your assertion that Hall of Famer Ben Roethlisberger was not a franchise quarterback. If you weren't woodwork, I might remember to laugh at your notion again when we see him put on his gold jacket, most likely in 2027, the first year he is eligible. My post didn't have to say much to point out the ridiculousness of yours.

That said, let's go a little longer just for you. One problem you have, that many of us have, is that we try to blame the lack of a Super Bowl since 2008 on just one thing. Some put it on Tomlin. You seem to be putting it on Roethlisberger. Both bear some responsibility, but there were also many other factors at play.

Take that playoff loss to the Jaguars. The answer lies somewhere between what you wrote and STD's take. Yes, Roethlisberger helped put them in a hole, but he also got them back in the game with some absolutely spectacular plays. I'm still not sure it is accurate to say Bortles outplayed him. Their roles in the game were so different. Bortles had a running game the Steelers couldn't stop and a passing game that perfectly took advantage of the hole that was created in the middle of that defense when Shazier was injured. He did nothing special that day.

Also, I don't buy the bit about Roethlisberger coming out flat. I think he came out trying to do too much because he knew he had to given how poorly the entire team played in the regular-season loss to Jacksonville. That led to some mistakes early, but it also led to some spectacular play for the rest of the game.

 

Ah, so you’re going to insult my intelligence and fandom and turn around and not read my reply?

Is the red font too hard to read or is the “click to expand” button too confusing?

What a joke lol

 

I told you, it’s the way you formatted the post. You could change it to post like everybody else if you would like a response……..or not.

I don’t begrudge Ben going to the hall. It’s irrelevant to any points I’ve made. Dave Krieg is in the hall. Warren Moon is too. So is Ken Anderson. I wouldn’t say that any of those guys were “franchise QBs” in MY opinion.

Ifs a deflection to try and quibble over the term “franchise QB”. You can call Ben that but I think it’s clear that the team started to underachieve once they made him the focal point and the piece to build around. They never made it back to the SB with those pass-first offense-led killer B teams. Ever since SB XLV the Steelers have only made 1 conference championship appearance and I say that’s mainly due to Ben not being as good as the hype.

Nah, it’s incorrect to paint me that way as I’ve said more than once that I put the underachieving for the second half of Ben’s career on the organization’s decision to treat Ben as if he was in the Manning, Brady, Brees, Rogers class. He wasn’t. When you look at the 3 teams that Ben Qb’ed to the SB, they all featured dominant defenses that allowed Ben and the offense to do just enough to win. That’s the formula they should’ve stuck with.

Never said Blake was special that day. I said that he outplayed Ben. Bortles didn’t turn the ball over and he made the plays when he was asked to. Ben turned the ball over helping to put his team in a hole, and he also failed to make plays at crucial points during the attempted comeback despite the window dressing stats. The Steelers had the ball within 7 in the 3rd. Yes Blake had a running game to lean on while Ben and the Steelers were heavily reliant on the passing game despite having arguably the best back in the league at the time, but that goes back to my main point. It was a mistake to make Ben and the passing game the focal point of the team. That team was much too pass-heavy. There’s no reason that Ben should’ve felt like it was all on him with a prime 1st team all pro Leveon and rookie Conner on the team. Yea, Ben probably did go into the game want to carry the team and avenge the earlier loss, but that was also probably due to the fact that the regular season loss to the jags was on him too. He threw 5 picks in that 1st game trying to do too much

 

I’ve posted in that format numerous times over the years when addressing multiple questions/opinions/talking points in one. Never had a problem before. idk.

I think most of this post was addressing other posters, but the main point I was trying to make was that TEAMS win in the postseason not players… and coaches are a part of the team. While I never made excuses for Ben in any of my posts, Tomlin is just as culpable for the team’s performance as Ben is. Ben could’ve played better in games, but we could’ve also been better prepared, better game planned, etc. Can’t absolve one and crucify the other.

 

When an organization paid a QB franchise money then that QB better be ready to deliver.

Ben is the highest payed play the Steelers ever had. I don't believe there is a close 2nd. I think that Ben could had been better as an individual player. I think the Steelers got their moneys worth out of Ben. Based on my memory he helped the team make it to the playoffs 12 out of 17 seasons and the Steelers made it to 3 SB's with Ben as QB. Never had a losing season. Ben gave this team a chance when he was on his game. I wish he was on his game in the post season when it mattered the most. He wasn't so.....

Tomlin had a hand in the losses. It comes with the territory of being the HC. It doesn't mean that Tomlin is the bad coach that some seem to believe.

Injuries played a role in the losses. Ben had the bigger role in the losses because of his poor play, inconsistent play, mistakes, and ultimately turnovers.

 

Well I’m not here to crucify anyone. As critical of Ben as I sound here, it’s just in the context of being brutally honest. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for what Ben did with the team though. I just think it’s unfair how he gets a pass while Tomlin is hated on. Even if I went with your “they were both just as culpable” stance, I’d still have to reconcile why Ben is so much more beloved by the fan base than Tomlin.

I agree with everything except Tomlin being just as culpable. Again, Ben was treated like the franchise qb. Everything was built around him. They even changed from tradition and went pass-first to cater to him. All of the decisions that went along with that were over Tomlin’s head. How much power did Tomlin have back then? Ben was the guy and the team was designed to go as far as he and the offense could take them. Have you analyzed Ben’s playoff stats?

I get it man. I’m a fan not a hater but the truth is often brutal. They didn’t get their money’s worth and I think that’s why there’s some frustration when people look back on Ben/Tomlin’s career. Tomlin is just scapegoated for various reasons.

When you have a guy who’s hyped up as a “franchise QB” and you pay him as such, you have to expect him to deliver when it matters most in the postseason. Yes Tomlin and the coaching staffs have some blame, other players have blame, and there were injuries plus just plain bad luck. At the end of the day though, it was Ben who didn’t play up to the “franchise QB” level. 63% completion 36tds 28ints.

Ben was very fortunate to get drafted to the Steelers when he did. You can make a realistic argument that if he didn’t get drafted to a team already good enough to contend, he would’ve never got to a SB. He played in 3 SBs by 28(anchored by a legendary defense)and only made it back to 1 conference championship game after that.

 

There is so much wrong with what you wrote here. Let's start with factual errors. Ken Anderson and Dave Kreig are not in the Hall of Fame. This idea that you think you can name a Hall of Fame quarterback who wasn't a franchise quarterback is just comical and you made yourself look even worse by making such glaring errors while trying to double down.

It's absolutely correct to paint you that way and I already explained why.

Your argument regarding the playoff loss to Jacksonville doesn't hold up, either. It ignores the sad state of the defense going into that game. They had been a very strong unit before the loss of Shazier, but they never recovered from his absence. Roethlisberger, on the other hand, was facing a defense that was dominant all season, and after a slow start, he carved them up.

 

Tomlin was part of the Ben hype, he did not corral him, he let him get away with being Ben. that too is party on Tomlin.

 

Ben stats might look good in the end, but it's the slow starts and turnovers that hurts the Steelers chances of winning, they fell behind to Jacksonville 21-0 .

 

Yeah ok. Our d had nothing to do with that. The same D that couldn't stop the run all day that day.
When a Man throws for 5tds, and 1 int...Against the number 1 D that year.... I don't care how slow You start. We got beat in that game by a Qb that threw 1 td.

 

Yet You named Brady, Rodgers , Brees, and Manning. Rodgers one SB appearance that's all...Brees one SB appearance that's all.
Manning got whooped worse than I ever seen a Qb get beat in a SB, and won another SB where he had 2 turnover, and no tds. Yet You hold all of them above Ben. LoL
Ben must have had relations with someone You really liked, or something.

 

This

 

Remind me again the last time Ben and the offense got off to a fast start in the playoffs ?

 

What the difference. You throw 5 tds, and 1int against the best D in the league, and the other Qb only scored 1 freaking td. What bizarro world would that be the Qbs fault. Come on think about it.
I never said Ben didn't have bad playoff games.....I don't know any Qbs in the history of football that didn't, but blaming a game a Qb facing the top D in the league throws 5 tds, and 1nt in ....especially when the other Qb only threw 1td.......is freaking insane.....