Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Rel, Jan 28, 2022.
Well... maybe Matt Canada will be OC forever because "Our QB isn't as good as Josh Allen or it would work."
Fichtner was able to create space for receivers with post-op Ben and Canada was not.
The article starts off by comparing two unlike plays and gets worse. The Bills use the mof extensively on deep crossing routes; the Steelers threw outside the seams all year.
I hadn't wanted an OC fired in over a decade but I want Canada gone yesterday.
So your telling me if you have a better QB, better OL and better WRs than another team, you can run same plays and have more success?
Wow, what a revelation. In the words of a future HoF HC: “Obviously”.
#1 the article is wrong. I guess to the extent just about every offense has similarities the two offenses are different.
#2. Our schemes are flawed which is actually well documented , just google it and you will find plenty of examples of poorly designed plays that didn’t accomplish what Canada intended. And/or called plays at moments that made little to no sense vs the defenses we were playing.
#3 We used the simplest offense in the nfl . It was a small college game. I actually think Canada used the same offense at Wisconsin for 1 season before being told to leave.
How many times did we run passing plays with a pre determined target for Ben to throw to? We had an advanced veteran QB and chose to not to utilize his ability to read a defense and exploit their weaknesses. Instead we told Ben to hit a pre determined target quickly after the snap. If that sounds exactly like what a high school offense does , you would be correct. Sure every team will do this on occasion but we did it as our primary pass offense . Even our blocking scheme was laughably simple which is why you saw our run game fail and pass rushers hitting Ben unblocked.
The other expectation you would have of any coach : get the most out of the players you have. Did we mold the offense to the players or did we mold the players to the offense? I think the results speak for them selves. We had a better offense the last 2 seasons and that’s crazy to say.
Kind of a duh article. You can’t say the offense works when you can’t do the things that make it work for Buffalo and KC. Saying we need to be able to pass deep and have a mobile QB to make it work is like no ****.
Fans on this board have been saying that all season. Every team that plays us knows they just have to defend what is in front of them. And having a QB that can’t move makes it worse.
One thing the article doesn’t mention is Buffalo and KC can and do attack the MOF. Another reason why our offense doesn’t work.
I agree that Canada hasn’t gotten a fair shake. My sole reason for wanting to bring in a new OC is simply because I wanted someone with a proven track record.
Now this is a criticism that I can get behind.
While I don’t think any OC would have scored very many points with the players they had on the field, I don’t believe Canada had enough NFL experience to make the adjustments needed to at least not be embarrassing.
Do you have some specific plays that you can point to as using a small college offense? I'm curious as to what they are.
I agree with some of your post but others I'm scratching my head. Ben was never good at reading a defense he just wasn't, however he was very good at creating on the fly and beating a defense. The being told where the play goes critique is troubling as well because Brady elevated this to an art form. You go back and watch times where he hit Welker, Amendola, and Edelman on drag routes they designed for them to be open but expanded the frame he could throw it on a seam to Gronk and its a walk in TD but he is already throwing the called drag route. He'd do the same thing on go routes where he throws into tight coverage and it's defended meanwhile his safety valve guy has 20 yards before anyone touches him. Several guys were discussing smart QB's doing wrong plays yesterday and this never came up for the Brady discussion but Mannings mistakes did. No one Mae the point that sometimes the right play, the right read and the right throw can't account for Troy Polamalu flying 10 yards in 2 seconds and picking off your throw.
Every few days you post something worth reading. Today apparently isn’t the day. This makes no sense whatsoever. What did Fichtner do run on the field and block the DBs?
This is not true. I can give multiple accounts of Him reading the D. Not only at the line , but after the snap. I agree with You a lot, but You are incorrect with this. This year I agree, but one some of that was Offense scheme, and some was not time 2 do so. Go watch the 1st half of the Tampa playoffs game this year,and see Brady with no time 2 go through the reads,Reads, what happens.
Now if You are talking about 2 years Ben I get what You are saying, but after that No.
I don't agree at all . Canada has not gotten a fair shake? . How is that? He knew what he had as players. He was on the team the previous year as well. What kind of an idiot runs an offense that requires your QB to do something he can't do? The ONLY way this style of offense would work is if they QB could move ...and really well. Basically the same crap you see a lot of college teams run for the last 20 years. So we ignore that fact and just run the offense anyway? WTF is that? That is on Canada for total lack of creativity and know how. A good coach looks at how he can get the most out of the players he has. Fitting a square peg into a round hole is insanely stupid. I can't even believe Tomlin allowed it which makes me wonder what the problem actually is.
It was also disturbing to watch experts break down our offense. I read numerous critiques of the offense that said it was philosophically flawed and the poorly schemed. Like an amateur was drawing it up. There's video break down of what we were trying to do and exploit and it's depressing to watch. Especially if you compare it to other teams or even our old offenses. Canada failed bringing in the correct personnel to run his offense and he failed by forcing the wrong personnel to run a poorly thought out plan. It was what anyone would call a schit show.
This is where the limitations of a message board sometimes creates problems. I'm not saying Ben couldn't read a defense or didn't at times or that at times he didn't make teams pay for running a certain defense. I'm saying he wasn't good at it. During his years with Cowher he was still learning and there are clips of Cowher asking him what coverage he saw and Ben says 2 and Cowher goes actually it was Cover-3. I'm not saying it as a negative so much as that it wasn't a strong suit. You look at Manning and he'd try right up until the snap of the ball to get you to reveal something about your defensive play call. That's how Porter was able to mess with him in the 05 Divisional game. Porter is saying get up get to the line then hold, hold some more, hold and when he is about to snap it then move.
During the height of Ben and Brown I'm not sure how many times I screamed Ben they are giving Brown a 5 yard cushion and the OLB is inside of the DE check the play to a quick slant. Could have tore teams apart.
He was saddled with Ben, what was he supposed to do with a QB that has no vertical game anymore and doesn’t throw to the MOF? Throw in the offensive line problems and what the heck was Canada supposed to do? And they were doing this same **** with Fichtner. You guys don’t want to admit it but it was Ben.
Anyone watching the games knows something changed after week 11 of 2020.
I guess I don't agree with you that Ben was bad at reading coverages. He struggled early in his career (like most Qb's not named Brady) but by the time he was throwing 4k-5K yards per season he was doing it masterfully. You don't run the offenses we used to run with out being good at reading a defense. Every QB might make a mistake reading a defense or the defense did a masterful job discussing it but overall Ben is better than the majority of QB's reading defenses. His tendencies to want to hit HR's was also the personality of Arians who Ben loved. Don't confuse that with not reading the defense correctly. The offense Haley ran required a lot from Ben in regards to reading the defense. We didn't struggle moving the ball then.
Matt Canada's offense is unapologetically simple. He has openly talked about this fact and it's not a disputable. It was his mantra in Wi and LSU. He was ran out of Madison because he had no ability to get the most out of the talent he had. He just forced his playbook on the players. He wants the players to think less and just run the simple plays perfectly. It's the opposite of Arians offensive philosophy basically. We went from one extreme to another. BA wanted to drive the car 100mph and MC wants to drive a Prius. The idea is we won't crash. I've read his interviews and he hits this point often.. simplicity. He doesn't want his QB's and WR's thinking about reads but rather thinking about executing the play called. It was on full display this season so I'm not sure why anyone would argue otherwise. This is what colleges and HS's do...because the players are kids. Arians high risk offense was great at times but it drove me nuts because one in a while it made more sense to play it safe and just get the first down when all you need is 1-3 yards. It would have been nice if Arians had Matt Canada as assistant.
The problem is defenses in the NFL are not that stupid. D coordinators read our offense like a Childrens book. Good coaches were goading Canada to run certain plays and it worked. I just watched a break down the chiefs game the other day and it pointed out how Matt Canada was caught multiple times guessing on zone or man coverage pre snap and just getting owned. There was no out for Ben or the WR's to change the play or make a read at the LOS or even during the play. This can work college, especially if you have a running QB because they have 2 options. If the pass play isn't there, take off. This is what Tomlin is dreaming about and this is why I'm afraid he's after a Lamar Jackson, Mike Vick type QB. The old school idea of using motion and different formations to read the defense doesn't work well in the NFL. It works in college. Don't forget Matt Canada also loved the pistol. Our local high school runs the pistol. Don't be shocked if you see it in 2022.
Before you argue with my point consider that we arguably had the worst offense in the league. We did not score a single point in the first half 7 weeks in a row. We set a record that stood since the 40's. The results speak for themselves.
There were several teams with not so great Qb's. They still managed to run a functional offense. Ben was by far not the worst QB in the league yet we had one of the worst offenses in the league. Titans saddled with Ryan Tannenhill ? Same yards, more Int's, less td's. But of course aren't you the same guy that thinks it's irrelevant that Ben had the worst O-line in the league and bad WR's? I believe we ranked in the top 3 worst teams in the league with dropped passes. Dead last in the NFL in offensive line push off the snap.
Google "Matt Canada simple" and you can read all about his offensive philosophy. This is why he wants a mobile Qb. Apparently he's a one trick pony.
Wonder how that will work out against good teams in the post season? Cause you know how all of those mobile QB's just win SB's. If only we had him here during the Kordel Stewart Days. I'm sure bill Cowher would have loved watching us get shut out in the first half 7 weeks straight.
I am thankful for all he did on the field. But, he should not have played the last 2 years. He most definitely should have been yanked 12/21/20 at the end of the first quarter.
I'm not arguing with your assertion that it is a small college offense and simple I just wanted to see plays that show that because I saw the same formations, personnel groupings and play calls that we have been seeing since Haley left. They line up in that bunch formation with typically a TE, Claypool in front and DJ or Ray Ray, Ben snaps the ball the front two push forward but can't engage in blocking early and the one yard pass to DJ where the whole defense knew it was coming and didn't bother with anyone else than DJ. Remember when that grouping was new and fresh and you could run multiple plays out of it where the defense didn't know what to do? Now its the quick hitter that fools no one. They have delays and draws that you don't need analytics to know they are coming. It's a half hearted designed run game that allows them to go uptempo when they fall behind and 30 yard passes when you need 4. It was the same offense that kept Ben happy for 3 years.
I don't know if you are being overly generous to Ben and his "reading" of the defense or the generous at the making of mistakes. To me if you are reading a defense using motion is a good indicator, Ben didn't care about motion so how does he know if it's zone or man? Certainly Ben's personality when throwing caution to the wind and throwing into triple coverage because he is absolutely sure AB can go up and get that ball but if you read three guys on him that means someone is open and probably for a big gain if you read it right. If you read all out blitz you check to the hot read and get rid of the ball, you don't typically pump fake, take a shot to the ribs and throw into tight coverage down the sideline. Remember the Jags game regular season if you are reading the defense how do you miss the LB hanging back and sitting in the zone on coverage? I get losing guys as the play develops or having guys disguise what they are doing but to just make that throw. That game was just horrible for Ben. This all sounds like I am hating on him which I'm not, the guy made some amazing plays, things that should just be impossible, I just don't think he read defenses as well as a cerebral QB.
How do you break down the difference between how the Steelers performed with some talented pieces and teams that are less talented and skilled performing better on offense? What are the things they are doing versus what Pittsburgh was doing? Im with you on teams did better with less but why is the real question. If it is a function of a poor scheme and playbook by Canada then why was there success at times too, If it was Ben why did Mason struggle against the Lions? Is it both? I thought that the Oline should have lucked themselves into a good game at some point and it wasn't there.
I agree with early Ben. I even said in my comment 2 year Ben( which was under Cowher). I can show many plays where He reads the D at the line, and after the snap. Hell I can even point 2 interviews with other D players talking about having 2 changing, and disguising coverage against Him. If He couldn't read a D there would be no need of that. No??? Why do You think He has so rarely been zero blitzed??? Even by the king of zero blitzes the ravens. Because He reads that stuff ,and will eat you alive with it.
What??? We won big in that game
Did you watch anything from Pat McAfee yesterday on it. Chuck Pagano's insights on Ben from when he was with the Ravens were hysterical. They didn't come at him like crazy because of his size but also the ability to give a wiggle and slide past them and still sling the ball. Chuck was like I told my guys come in under control because if you come on hot out of control he is going to make you look silly.
no we didn’t, we didn’t even play that day
fat fingers meant to type 12/21/20
yes, but this was a function of athletic ability, not his ability to read coverage, or a comic book, or…
I agree with this whole freaking post. Also He has always sent men into motion. Even just 3 send them back 2 the organization spot. Hell announcers Have even said ...Ben is trying 2 get a jump on what coverage they are in. A lot of what we are pointing out they talk about during the games.