For the Big Ben haters

Ben has put all of his im-mature behavior behind him, he is on the right path now, no need to keep bringing it up, he has his best football years in front of him and we need to enjoy them with him...

 

Shaner I believe you are looking for the Sports Illustrasted article entitled the Hangover

 

Anyone else find this ironically amusing considering the thread and accusations being flung therein?

 

I don't know T.E. I am pretty open minded about the subject but after looking for just 20 min. this afternoon I have to say some of the reports are a bit disturbing. Now I am not talking about anything pre NFl but the stuff after. The reports of security personnel intimidating people to erase photos or video on phones so there is no evidence of the wild child/jerk side of Ben. The SI story talking about how months after the motorcycle incident and Ben's vow always wear a helmet he was caught driving without one and even flipped the bird to someone recording it and how one of the local channels dropped the story after pressure from Ben's camp under speculation that they didn't want to lose the right to broadcast Steelers games. The stories about his treatment of services people at restaurants and his general attitude of entitlement. Even if you look at it with a grain of salt it paints a very different picture than what he tries to present on the field.

 

I'm with you, you'll never hear me say Ben wasn't a D-bag for a while. And I believe his behavior was suspect that night in GA too, I just don't believe it went as far as rape. I also think that incident and subsequent suspension was the best thing to ever happen to Ben. Some may think it's an act but I disagree, I think Ben changed for the better. And if it is an act, sooner or later the facade will crack. It's been 2 years and he's kept his nose clean so far.[/quote:2yzj229n]
This is directed to everybody in the discussion:

Why do we need to form an opinion on that? I only make opinions on what I see and know for sure. I've never understood people who go to such lengths to defend or condemn something they are clearly speculating on. Did Michael Jackson molest kids or just snuggle them innocently while he slept? For someone as out there as him, both are possibilities. So I don't know, and unless I was there or on a grand jury, I'm gonna say I don't know. What do we know for sure about Ben and this girl? He was locked in the ladies' room with her with bodyguards outside. She accused him of rape or attempted rape or something, he denied it. Seems like there's a chance he's lying and a chance she's lying. Maybe some of each. Most people agree that even if he's totally innocent of breaking any laws and it was all consensual, doing it the way he did was still a terrible idea and asking for trouble. If he wanted to get laid they coulda bounced to a hotel room. So maybe she made up a story to try to extort him. Maybe he went way too far against her but didn't leave evidence (that's totally possible and doesn't make him any less of a rapist/molester in my book). She took awhile to go to the cops, he had her locked in the bathroom with bodyguards. Both have some holes in their stories. As far as I'm concerned, anyone going out of their way to be certain on one side or the other must have some kind of agenda, because unless they were in a courtroom or one of the stalls, there's no way they can actually know.

I hate Ben because I think he's a d-bag even without all the reports. I can tell just from hearing him talk. And I think he's definitely sketchy in his personal life. But I don't know if he's a rapist. I just don't. But I think the people saying he did it for sure and the people falling all over themselves to protect him (remember SixAintEnough? Him and others basically called her a lying whore in 20 posts a day) are delusional.

 

This is directed to everybody in the discussion:

Why do we need to form an opinion on that? I only make opinions on what I see and know for sure. I've never understood people who go to such lengths to defend or condemn something they are clearly speculating on. Did Michael Jackson molest kids or just snuggle them innocently while he slept? For someone as out there as him, both are possibilities. So I don't know, and unless I was there or on a grand jury, I'm gonna say I don't know. What do we know for sure about Ben and this girl? He was locked in the ladies' room with her with bodyguards outside. She accused him of rape or attempted rape or something, he denied it. Seems like there's a chance he's lying and a chance she's lying. Maybe some of each. Most people agree that even if he's totally innocent of breaking any laws and it was all consensual, doing it the way he did was still a terrible idea and asking for trouble. If he wanted to get laid they coulda bounced to a hotel room. So maybe she made up a story to try to extort him. Maybe he went way too far against her but didn't leave evidence (that's totally possible and doesn't make him any less of a rapist/molester in my book). She took awhile to go to the cops, he had her locked in the bathroom with bodyguards. Both have some holes in their stories. As far as I'm concerned, anyone going out of their way to be certain on one side or the other must have some kind of agenda, because unless they were in a courtroom or one of the stalls, there's no way they can actually know.

I hate Ben because I think he's a d-bag even without all the reports. I can tell just from hearing him talk. And I think he's definitely sketchy in his personal life. But I don't know if he's a rapist. I just don't. But I think the people saying he did it for sure and the people falling all over themselves to protect him (remember SixAintEnough? Him and others basically called her a lying whore in 20 posts a day) are delusional.[/quote:f0e6ukub]

Well, I was in one of the discussions so I'll be glad to respond.

Clearly speculating...? Really? I hope you are exaggerating. First of all, clear speculation would be from zero to little evidence either way. I think there was much more than that. Second, I have a hard time believing you ONLY form opinions on something you are witness to or have full investigation on. Maybe I'm wrong there, but we are talking about human nature and people tend to form opinions on things they can't be 100% on. Especially when they have a historical pattern to draw from as well as other self analytical evidence to connect some dots. Things like his drunkeness, doormen, his own admission of the big ben mystic and your opinion of his douchebaggery. That's a bad brew. That's what I based my opinions on. (Never mind the quick and positive-PR-spin seeming wedding the following year that I never brought up.)

I NEVER said he raped her. I need that to be clear. I just argue vehemently that he was not railroaded or totally innocent.

This college girl, who gets such a bad rap because she might be something that society thinks is such a scarlet letter is not a reasonable indictment to me. Unless she lied, obviously that's all together a different story . But as you said, it will never be known and she did nothing wrong up to that point except for drink under age. Which c'mon, it's college. It's like asking those kids to not breath. Plus, he supposedly bought drinks for them while knowing they were underage. That's a wash.

I do say that the abuse might have happened. I just don't know.

Why form an opinion? 1) Because the subject of people getting abused and their victimization being brushed aside is a subject I take interest in I guess. Injustice is a subject I take interest in and maybe they are knee jerk reaction to be interested in, but I do. especially when it's my team and Ben's 2nd accusation in 9 months. What can I tell ya. And before someone calls me a bleeding heart or that I should be a public defender or some crap like that, that person can bl%# me. I'm just voicing an opinion on a news worthy event and nothing more.

I absolutely condemn him and the use of his body guards, plus, wanting privacy in a WOMEN'S...PUBLIC...restroom and keeping her friends from checking in on her. That is all. Those are facts bro! No speculation. And that's detainment. A criminal offense. A serious one. He's a huge guy and she was a small woman. As a man you have to take those situations seriously this day and age. For good reason. Because woman have lied AND because they haven't also. Best to be smart and he wasn't.

Remember, he isn't you and I. We aren't getting paid 10 mill a year to be squeaky clean and an athlete. Yes, I think that's part of the deal to keep their nose clean and he had a string of years where he didn't. We kill the bungles for this stuff.

I'm not going to go too deep into the M. Jackson thing. HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO LAY WITH OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN!!! That's indefensible. That's like defending O.J., which non of us were there for. Charles Manson wasn't at the scene of the crimes, is he innocent? Do you have kids?

You said: "So maybe she made up a story to try to extort him." - But she didn't. So what's your point. We are going to speculate on something she could have done but didn't? I could kill my neighbor for being loud. You can't bring up something that didn't happen.

Her not going to the cops after a period of time happens ALL THE TIME in cases of rape and molestation. It's a traumatic experience for people. Ever heard of PTSD? Key part of that being "POST". That's not a hole in her story in my book.

Remember I never said he did it. It's everything that led up to the moment his guys wouldn't let her friends in I take issue with. I think this guy has had years of bad judgement that effected the team and I hate having to defend the teams rep because of his actions OFF THE FIELD. It just drives me nuts. I don't live in Western PA, he doesn't get a free pass. Every year when I wear a Steelers jersey on sundays in a bar I can't just argue the points of the game. It sucks, he's to blame.

And I don't hate him. He might be an alright guy otherwise, he's just a jock meat head.

 

Without all the quoting, I'll just say obviously not all of it is speculation, but I think reaching any kind of definite conclusion is speculation. He can be guilty of something less than rape and still deserve to be thrown in jail. Maybe he did all of it, maybe part of it, maybe none. We're all wrong if we say we know one way or another. The only thing I know for sure is that he's (brilliantly put) a jock meat head. And I'll add, poopface.

I'm not saying it's alright for a grown man to sleep alongside a child, but that was his official defense if I recall correctly, and if he's weird/damaged/child-like innocent enough, it could have been done in a harmless way. That's him, not me, but it sure isn't the same as molesting, so if that's all he did then he would be innocent of that. But again, my point was that I don't know what happened.

I do form opinions about stuff I don't know everything about. I should have been more clear. I suppose my point here is that whether or not he crossed the line with her is not something anyone can have an opinion on. It's a fact that we don't know. You guys could fight all day about how much I weigh, but in the end you won't have opinions, you'll have guesses about a fact. What you think Ben did isn't an opinion, it's a guess. What you think of him as a person is an opinion.

 

Huzzah!

This.

Though the original post was just wrong, flat out, in trying to link one specific case, with a whole range of different issues, to Ben's case, with it's entirely different range of issues.

 

She may have lied, but the issue I have with this whole thing is this case was mismanaged from the beginning by the cops. The investigating officer immediately accused this girl of lying and called her various names. Plus the investigating officer was getting pictures with Ben around the whole time this case was developing. There were a lot of other things going on that shouldn't have happened as well. It's a big coincidence that this cop then resigned from the police force shortly after.

When the police don't do their job, how can anyone expect to know what the truth really is?

 

Like this quote from above; " just that I think the girl lied about being raped". I just can't deal with the homer-ism and making blanket impartial and biased statements. Yes, some girls have lied and a zillion have not, so, to me, that point has no bearing.

"Something many people still have a hard time believe happens." this is just such a complete spin and mischaracterization of everything posted in this thread it's crazy. Maybe this statement could be reflected back to the people that take Ben simply at his word. What makes his case stronger than hers!? Because she had that pin on??? Ben admitted his was in a cloud of narcissism with his image. His attitude is what sways me toward her story more than his. And also that she didn't try benefit from with some financial gain like the Nevada woman did. There was no upside for the GA woman other than justice.

 

Or she could have caved to peer pressure from her friends and had the UPSIDE of making herself feel better after doing something she may have regretted with Ben not knowing that if she actually did go to the Police it would blow up and then she would have to give a FACTUAL account of what happened. Did you see her interview? Her story is all over the place. For example, she said she was SITTING DOWN FACING BEN WHEN HE ACTUALLY DID IT AND HIS YOU KNOW WHAT WAS OUT OVER HIS SHORT'S BAND AND NOT THROUGH THE ZIPPER!!!. How is that possible? Is Ben's junk as shaped like a roller coaster?

 

Ah, now I know how my simple point has turned into this long rehashing of old news. You just can't seem to accept that women lie about being raped, it's not being a homer, it's reality. You don't like my opinion, tough s**t, I think she lied.[/quote:24dy6koh]

Except that a few lines above I said "yes, some girls have lied" about being raped. Otherwise your point about me not being able to except that premise would have been spot on. Selective reading is maybe at fault here.

Your opinion is clear, I just think it's unfair that this woman is held accountable for what some other women have done and not given the benefit of doubt with the countless woman who have not lied. It's not so much your opinion I have tried to figure out in these discussions, it's the basis of why his story carries more weight than hers? It just always wreaks of boys club BS and sticking together, coupled with the idea she is loose with her ways. And of course we all know that slut automatically means liar and it's impossible that a slut could be taken advantage of. She must have been asking for it...!

 

If this was 2010 you'd have to create a "definition of rape" subforum.

 

You can place it wherever you like TTF.

But I disagree, it seems like it's completely relevant to the topic and our team. Maybe not play on the field if that's what you mean.

I so rarely check out that sub-forum or any of them in general that I don't even know what goes on in those things.

Plus, I think my point of view has been pretty clearly stated at this point and there really isn't much more for me to say or hear on the opposing view. I think my conclusions are drawn from a chain of documented events and the other side is using examples from non related cases AND provincial attitudes of sexuality to make conclusions.

I mean, if I held Ben to the history of every rich man of great power and hubris who took advantage of women who they thought were there for their personal pleasure then I'd believe the woman from the first accusations in Nevada. But I don't...

 

Ah, now I know how my simple point has turned into this long rehashing of old news. You just can't seem to accept that women lie about being raped, it's not being a homer, it's reality. You don't like my opinion, tough s**t, I think she lied.[/quote:3kpsj1a0]

Except that a few lines above I said "yes, some girls have lied" about being raped. Otherwise your point about me not being able to except that premise would have been spot on. Selective reading is maybe at fault here.

Your opinion is clear, I just think it's unfair that this woman is held accountable for what some other women have done and not given the benefit of doubt with the countless woman who have not lied. It's not so much your opinion I have tried to figure out in these discussions, it's the basis of why his story carries more weight than hers? It just always wreaks of boys club BS and sticking together, coupled with the idea she is loose with her ways. And of course we all know that slut automatically means liar and it's impossible that a slut could be taken advantage of. She must have been asking for it...![/quote:3kpsj1a0]

It's pretty naive to think only "some" girls have lied about being raped. By saying "some" you are basically saying I don't believe it but don't want to come across as a fool by saying so. It's pretty clear from reading your posts that you think all girls are angles and you'll cut them slack no matter what, despite your double talk. Ben's never been charged with anything, the guy must be a master criminal.

@ TTF, sorry, I let myself get drawn back into this from an insult by OS, I should have left it alone. Lock it, move it, burn it if you want [/quote:3kpsj1a0]

Insult? When did I insult you? I thought we kept it civil yet spirited as you said earlier. I didn't mean to.

you are wrong by projecting and distorting what you think I mean as opposed to what I said I mean. I know for a fact some females have lied. It would be ridiculous to say otherwise. But I do think they are in a far minority to those who haven't lied. Or those who haven't come forth out fear of a fruitless outcome and reprisals. I couldn't even begin to put an accurate numerical percentage in the lier vs actual victim categories.

You don't want to take me at my word? Fine...don't. But I don't know how you feel that's fair. Now you're calling me a liar without anything to back it up. That's weird.

 

Easy Tomlin_Era, you might be misreading that. I know lots of girls that don't lie about getting raped. In fact, every girl I know who has never claimed rape, as well as every girl that's really been raped. So some girls don't lie about getting raped. Some do. He's not saying they're all telling the truth, he's saying some are.

 

I agree.

The problem with this kind of discussion - and it was the same back in '10 - is that this is a sports fan forum. So what do we all know about here? Easy, the Steelers. (And that's not "know" as in "being expert"... just knowing)

When it comes to complex sociological, legal, psychological etc. issues, we're all basically flailing. Even if someone here was a professor, and detailed evidence from their world-leading research on the subject, it's still a Steelers forum, and that's the basis of all our conversations first and foremost. So it's not surprising that it all flares up, and people start throwing wild claims around, because people are now throwing huge general claims about the world in general.

In short, this thread is out of it's depth.

 

I understand and see the similarity.Don't even get me started on this topic and I'm not even gonna limit it to Ben....how about tyson...yeah I said it.