For the Big Ben haters

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/m ... index.html

 

Not even close....

 

That story has no bearing on the allegations against Ben. Doesn't make it more or less likely that he committed some form of sexual assault. Besides, as a Ben hater, his allegations are only a small part of the bigger picture. I won't bother getting into the details as they've been rehashed on this site many times, but Ben was all around a pretty terrible person for many years. Whether or not he committed sexual assault doesn't change my opinion of him in any significant way.

 

I'd also like to clarify that, I love him (usually) as a player, but I don't have any real love for him as a person. I don't hate him like I do some others players around the league.

 

This x1000.

Slightly off topic, I might be alone here, but I find all this "x-hater" and "y-lover" talk all a bit... juvenile. Maybe showing my age a bit.

I often find myself defending players or coaches on this board, but it's more down to the strength of argument being put against them rather than any physical affection or lack thereof. It doesn't really help matters to draw simplistic lines.

 

Yes, women lie about being raped, and men also lie about raping women. It works both ways, but one story has no relevance on what Ben did or didn't do. Either way, Ben did some things I don't agree with. As for him being a nice, respectful kid when he entered the league, that's not true. Ben had issues in college and high school. Sure, he probably was respectful as a rookie in the NFL, but he wasn't respectful before coming into the NFL.

You're right, Ben is far from the only athlete to be arrogant and rude.

 

Has everything to do with it, clearly the girl in GA also lied, you don't rape someone and not leave a treasure chest of DNA behind. That girl was no angel. I'll have to see any reports of Ben being an a-hole before entering the league, sounds like bs and don't believe a word of it, I can back up that he was a good kid when he entered the NFL.[/quote:3abcthjo]

You can believe what you want to believe. I really have no interest in going down this road. Numerous articles have been posted on this site talking about Ben's issues long before he came into the NFL. Past college and high school teammates have spoken out against Ben. If you want to believe Ben is an all around good guy, by all means, knock yourself out. I think he's a gigantic ******* and always will be.

 

Com on Era, you can find a few examples of any opinion or subject to forward an argument. It doesn't mean all cases are similar. Notice how when talking about Ben he HAD/has almost universal support in the first case in Lake Tahoe. There weren't any witnesses to confirm anything either way and some negative rumors against the woman afterward made it seem more inline with the OP's link. I too was on Ben's side after that one.

But, the Georgia situation is littered with bad behavior and evidence leading to ill opinions of Ben and his use of his body guards. While there is no physical evidence committing him to the worst possible outcome of the accusations his actions don't help his case. Maybe the whole story never became public knowledge because the woman wanted it to go away. If the worst scenario did happen, maybe she didn't want to relive what could be the worst moment in her life over and over in public, on the record and in front of a whole courtroom of people in her community and the larger press. She wouldn't be the first woman to not want that and to move on with her life. There are plenty examples of that too. I happen to know LOTS of woman who have been sexually violated in some form or another and the ripple effect is personal and different for all of them. Her behavior before the possible incident has absolutely nothing to do with the final accusation. There is no such thing as rape me clothes or rape me behavior. PERIOD. I also personally know 2 cases of a males being accused of sexual malfeasance and being cleared after investigation. So, I'm not saying he did it either, but his actions on that night were deplorable and because of that I put my own daughter, mother and sisters in that hypothetical situation with the way he misused his guards for privacy in a public bathroom to prevent her friends from entering in such a manner. It made me lose respect for him as a person, not as an athlete. It's kind of like OJ just not a huge. Simpson the player and the person are two different conversations. That's why he's still in the hall of fame.

Georgia it re-ignited the Nevada story. Not so much for me, but I understand it might have for lots of other people. Especially women.

All that combined with the bike accident, not wearing a helmet when he has to for his job, "not being a big film guy", has me thinking he doesn't always consider the ramifications on the team and organization as much as I think he should. And I don't put myself or the other fans circumstances in the same context simply because of the deal he signed up for. The dude makes ten gazzillian dollars a year to consider all this stuff, be a prepared player, professional athlete and good team mate and perform well come game day. To what degree of all that stuff he does those things is a personal call.

I'm not a hater of the guy, but I'm not over the moon about him either. I do love that he's our QB. I also think he could be even better with commitment like some other notable QB's. He's not a perfect player (not even close) and I understand that.

 

There are some things bigger than sports and bigger than your favourite team. Ben should not get a free pass just because he's a Steeler. The fact is, if Joe Flacco did what Ben has done, there would be hundreds of posts on this site blasting Flacco.

The Rooney's, Ben's agent, Ben's friends, Ben's teammates, Bill Cowher, and even Ben himself have admitted there were serious behavioural problems. This isn't just something the media made up, and in fact, there's a lot of talk that the Pittsburgh media has hidden various things (such as him riding without a helmet long after his accident and giving the reporter the finger while speeding off) to help protect his image and to not hurt their standing with the Steelers franchise.

Ben seems to get a free pass from many on this site just because he's a star QB on the Steelers. I bet if he wasn't a Steeler most on this site would hate him.

 

Can't we all just agree that -- rape or no rape -- the guy's a d-bag any way you work it? :thumbsup:

 

I actually don't care if people agree with me or not on that fact, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just hate having to read how he's such a good guy, and he went through a little phase, and he didn't even really do anything wrong. Stuff like that drives me nuts. Some of these people need to think about how they would feel if it was their pregnant daughter being verbally abused by Ben, simply because she's a waitress.

 

Very true. While I think Ben is naturally arrogant and self-entitled (not that a lot of other athletes aren't as well) hopefully he has learned how to treat people with respect. He's definitely learned how to stay out of the spotlight, hopefully he has actually changed and isn't just hiding his behaviour better these days.

 

I was simply pointing out that women lie about being raped, like the girl in the story posted along with this thread. So why is it so hard to believe the girl in GA lied? The girl in the Duke lacrosse incident lied about the ENTIRE team raping her, that's my point on how it's relevant to Bens GA incident. And I agree, no girl deserves to be raped but when they behave a this girl did, I find it hard trusting her, her character is as shady as Bens. People need to stop putting their daughters or own loved ones into this scenario, it has no place here because it is NOT your daughter. I certainly hope yours doesn't behave that way, the GA girl was acting like a slut. So yeah, if I had a daughter that went through that, after I killed Ben I would make sure she never saw the outside of her bedroom again. I think the GA girl lied, lied through her teeth, I think Ben was an assh**e and went a little too far in the bathroom after she wanted to stop but I don't think for one second that he raped her. I've admitted in other threads numerous times that Ben went down the wrong road for a while and was a prick, he wasn't a good guy and I also think the GA incident was a kick in the ass for him, he seems to get it now, I think it straightened him out. That's how I see it anyway.[/quote:1me0vvdl]

Well, we agree and disagree and I'm fine with that (what other choice do I have).

Look, it seems like there is enough age and life experience in this message board that we all know girls have lied about this stuff in the past. Do we really need to discuss that? I don't think so.

He wasn't just accused of being an a-hole even though he was, there is no "crime" in that. We have to look beyond those types all the time. We can't prove the rape accusation. But we can prove a few things and they are criminal. Anyone, but especially a large 6'5'' 250lb. man CANNOT enter a ladies bathroom and post body guards at the door to keep her in and others out man! That is as close to forceful detainment and abduction as I can conceive. As men, scientifically we have more upper body strength than females and with that power comes responsibility. He was criminally irresponsible when he posted those guys there. Essentially locking the door. He was drunk and so was she. I don't trust what he says, he has so much to lose otherwise.

What was her crime? Being a slut as you say? Well, I have serious issues with that mentality. First off, I can't stand the double standard woman are saddled with in that regard. It sounds like something someone the Taliban would say. The girl is an adult and if she wants to have sex whenever and with whoever she wants, more power to her. I stopped calling girls those names once I became an adult and had to live my own life and many things fell into prospective. Just because she MIGHT be promiscuous doesn't mean she can't be harmed sexually or that she's a liar. In fact, I think men believe she is less of a person and would take advantage of her status in such ways.

Yes, I use female loved ones and personal stories all the time when I make judgement calls to help keep my own perspective in line. I try to consider walking in someone else's shoes. I know it's not scientific or the way things work in a court room, but I am talking about the court of public opinion.

Ben was way wrong and it's all his actions that led to his tarnished image and not hers one bit. She can be DTF all she wants, it doesn't give this hulk of a guy the right but to say anything but please ...may I? No. ...ok. I'll see ya later when I find someone who is really DTF.

Besides, what did this girl get out of it except a scarlet letter of her own...

 

Well, we agree and disagree and I'm fine with that (what other choice do I have).

Look, it seems like there is enough age and life experience in this message board that we all know girls have lied about this stuff in the past. Do we really need to discuss that? I don't think so.

He wasn't just accused of being an a-hole even though he was, there is no "crime" in that. We have to look beyond those types all the time. We can't prove the rape accusation. But we can prove a few things and they are criminal. Anyone, but especially a large 6'5'' 250lb. man CANNOT enter a ladies bathroom and post body guards at the door to keep her in and others out man! That is as close to forceful detainment and abduction as I can conceive. As men, scientifically we have more upper body strength than females and with that power comes responsibility. He was criminally irresponsible when he posted those guys there. Essentially locking the door. He was drunk and so was she. I don't trust what he says, he has so much to lose otherwise.

What was her crime? Being a slut as you say? Well, I have serious issues with that mentality. First off, I can't stand the double standard woman are saddled with in that regard. It sounds like something someone the Taliban would say. The girl is an adult and if she wants to have sex whenever and with whoever she wants, more power to her. I stopped calling girls those names once I became an adult and had to live my own life and many things fell into prospective. Just because she MIGHT be promiscuous doesn't mean she can't be harmed sexually or that she's a liar. In fact, I think men believe she is less of a person and would take advantage of her status in such ways.

Yes, I use female loved ones and personal stories all the time when I make judgement calls to help keep my own perspective in line. I try to consider walking in someone else's shoes. I know it's not scientific or the way things work in a court room, but I am talking about the court of public opinion.

Ben was way wrong and it's all his actions that led to his tarnished image and not hers one bit. She can be DTF all she wants, it doesn't give this hulk of a guy the right but to say anything but please ...may I? No. ...ok. I'll see ya later when I find someone who is really DTF.

Besides, what did this girl get out of it except a scarlet letter of her own...[/quote:m4lodqt9]

So girls aren't held accountable for their actions in your world? If you associate every girl like she was your daughter I can see why that would cloud your judgment. Sorry but it took two people to be in that position in GA that night. Ben didn't drag the girl into that bathroom by her hair like some caveman. And yeah, the girl was acting like a slut, call it like I see it. Is that word to harsh for you, ok, we'll use yours, promiscuous, only there is no "might"about it, she definitely is. I think you are being a little too chivalrous and way too protective of women, there are lots of prisons out there full of women criminals, not all girls are saints. Should they all be let out of prison because they are female? The GA girl as far as I know is far from being a criminal but she wasn't without fault that night either. But she gets a pass because she's a girl, talk about double standards. I've never condoned Bens actions that night, I'm just tired of everyone acting like the girl was dragged into an alley, beaten and raped. She wasn't, she went into a bathroom to have sex with a guy that she had been flirting with and following around all night and changed her mind. I'm sure Ben didn't stop right away. Doesn't make Ben a criminal, just a jerk.[/quote:m4lodqt9]

Of course girls are held accountable for their negative (and positive) actions the same as any human is. Not sure how my opinion of being fine with a SUPPOSEDLY slutty girl (I have no idea if she's a "slut" or not, all I have to go by is some silly pin she was wearing, what evidence do you have other than that? Having a buzz and flirting doesn't make her so in my mind either) is a kin to not thinking women can't do any wrong. That's reaching.

Just as I said earlier about having a daughter, sisters, mother and a long time girlfriend, believe me, I know they can and do wrong stuff all the time. But, being loose doesn't make this girl a criminal, or wrong, unless you are some provincial prude. If things are all even in your world as they are mine, do you come down on guys that sleep around? What clever names do you have for them or just a double standards? Because I TRY not to have double standards is another reason why I don't take issue with promiscuous women. When I was in my 20's I tried as much as possible to be promiscuous. How or why would I have issues with girls who wanted what I wanted. I celebrated it. And in my thirties I grew to respect it in a way. Shoot me!

If we ever found out she lied, then, she'd not only be a lier, but criminally liable for defamation. And I'd be all for prosecution.

As far as I read and if I remember correctly, the reports were that he FOLLOWED her into the bathroom after she was already in there. That's second to dragging her in there like a cave man. And as far as the law is concerned, if he didn't stop right away (as you said) it does make him more than JUST a jerk, it does in fact makes him a criminal. I've been in that situation also. Sucks, but you have to stop when they ask. Men are the ones with the tools for rape and that's the way it goes.

It does take two to tango, but it only takes one to want it to end. Don't blame me, blame that other woman. Mother nature. And society for the established rule. The rule I agree with because of the females in my life who's wishes I would want respected IF they were ever in a sexual situation and wanted it to stop for what ever reason, big or small. I don't think that makes me Mother Theresa or "overly chivalrous". Hahahaha, I have never ever been accused of that. Ask my girlfriend.

At least we agree he was a jerk though. Maybe even that he's a great player too.

 

The DNA thing is easy. If they stopped before he completed then there is the answer. You can force a woman, not finish and still have raped her.

There was also some bump on her head that we never addressed. Ben said she fell and that is very likely and she claimed Ben got a bit rough and forceful which could have happened. Remember, he was drunk too, so you never know. My gut leans more with him on this point. He also didn't just post guards at the door, they did prevent her friends from coming and checking in on her in a public bathroom. The guards are very lucky to not be in jail as well. That is where the detainment part comes into play.

As far as her AND all her friends wearing the DTF pin, it sounds like college kids wilding out as much as it's a bunch of ho bags cruising. Again, I don't believe there are rape me clothes or rape me behavior. A girl could be pantyless and flashing guys all night on purpose with a short skirt on, it doesn't mean she should be violated. I'd even say arrested for a few charges if the police wanted to go by the letter of the law.

I just don't think some men truly appreciate what being raped does to a person. And I think some men don't understand the clear margins of rape or when it begins and ends as the law states. They also think if she lets you start you are entitled to the green light for the duration because it might cause the guy some discomfort. Give me a break...

And I am not putting you in that above category. Just sayin...

Nice discussion though.

 

You can believe what you want to believe. I really have no interest in going down this road. Numerous articles have been posted on this site talking about Ben's issues long before he came into the NFL. Past college and high school teammates have spoken out against Ben. If you want to believe Ben is an all around good guy, by all means, knock yourself out. I think he's a gigantic assh**e and always will be.[/quote:2nk0gaow]

That's the problem shaner, you hate the guy to the point you are irrational about it and won't believe anything other wise, even to the point of making crap up to support your theory. There's nothing about Ben being a d-bag before entering the league, you writing that is the first I have ever seen of it, it's totally fantasy and if it's not, I want to see it because I have been defending the guy all this time and that would tell me that he really was a dirt bag all along. Like it or not, Ben wasn't always a prick, you just want him to be, you need to be more like Snack here and just hate him and not make s**t up about it And, by the way, you can't have it both ways, if you are going to believe every negative thing written or said about Ben as if it were gospel, then you can't discard the positive stuff.[/quote:2nk0gaow]

I didn't make anything up and I really don't like being accused of making stuff up. An article was posted here several months ago, and it was talking about Ben's issues before he ever even came into the NFL. Former teammates spoke up and more than one said they weren't surprised by Ben's issues (not so much the sexual assault, but just the overall behavioural issues). It talked about how he was a bad teammate before he went into the NFL, among other things.

I don't remember who posted it nor can I find it. I searched for various things, but I keep coming up with way too many results, both on this site and through a Google search. If you really care enough to read it, it's on this site, but you will have to wade through hundreds of results, unless you're better at searching than I am. I tried various keywords in the search and it comes up with way too many results and I just don't care enough to go through them all.

I don't believe every word I read about Ben, but when former teammates come out with stuff about him that fits in with his recent behavioural issues, yeah, I tend to believe it.

 

but, now there's a Mrs. Ben sitting at home.