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DJ should make an immediate impact

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Blast Furnace, May 18, 2019.

  1. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking you the question. I'm not supplying the answer and I did not ever suggest that you were saying that Smith-Schuster is incapable of improving. I'm asking you to supply the answer because when you do so, you will be supporting my point. It's a rhetorical tactic and there is absolutely nothing dishonest about it. You and I both know he is not just capable of improving, but likely to do so. I'm not spinning your position. I'm asking a fair question and waiting on you to answer it honestly.

    On some level, you have to realize that both questions I asked would force you to supply answers that support my argument. I get that you don't like that, but it's not dishonest.

    My post was accurate and fair. Your response is not. You have repeatedly accused me of dishonesty when It wasn't true.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  2. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    You don't get to make the statement below and then hide behind "he improved or Ben threw him the ball 200 times" when he goes on to post similar numbers without Brown. That's lame and what I meant by excuse. If he puts up good numbers without Brown, just admit you were wrong. Don't hide behind bs.

     
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  3. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    Antonio Brown who?

     
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  4. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm saying there are multiple factors involved either way. The only hiding was you hiding from the fair questions I asked you because they don't fit your narrative. I haven't posted a single thing that was dishonest, yet you falsely claimed otherwise multiple times and I don't see you admitting you were wrong.
     
  5. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    @Formerscribe you like to throw out these big numbers in the hope that people will be so wowed or scared of them that they won't question you about them. Such as the potential 400 yard loss that Juju might have in his production. When I broke that down to 25 yards a game that could be accounted for by a running game that takes pressure off Ben and the passing game.

    You response was even if they run more they still have to account for the 200 targets that are lost between Brown and James. Oh no another big number. Let's break that down let's say Brown gets the lions share at 160 tarets well that breaks down to 10 targets a game the remaining 40 breaks down to 2 5 a game for James. 180 for Brown still breaks down to 11.2 for a game and less than one to Jesse James. So you big 200 targets that are lost have be absorbed by the remaining 4 recievers, 2-3 tightends and 3 running backs. 11-12 targets a game spread over 10 players gosh that will be hard.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  6. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it is hard when none of those players is as good as the guy they just traded away. Also, those guys aren't all on the field at the same time. For example, only one of those three running backs is going to be on the field at a time. And which tight end is going to pick up the slack from James? Grimble hasn't shown the ability to produce like that. There is a reason the team traded for Vance McDonald two years ago. Yes, the Steelers are going to have to be more balanced, but they are still weaker without Brown.

    And 400 yards of production from one player is a big drop. You're breaking it down to try to make it look smaller, but it's still significant no matter how you split it up. You're also assuming the team will be able to run more effectively this season, which is far from guaranteed. Very often, they gave up on the running game last season and put the game in Roethlisberger's hands. What exactly have you seen from the coaching staff that makes you think they will do things any differently in 2019?
     
  7. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    Brown's stats dropped about 600 yards between 2015 and 2016 and another 300 yards between 2017 and 2018 ...... but the steelers have replaced that lost production by other player ... So it's not impossible
     
  8. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I never said it was impossible to replace. I said it would be evidence of how much Brown helped open things up for Smith-Schuster.
     
  9. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    Like Wallace for AB....Oh wait

    I have a pretty big memory that I remember the arguments that Brown was not going to be the same player without Wallace's double team ......
     
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  10. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    And I've answered this point repeatedly. Wallace at his very best was never even close to what Brown became.
     
  11. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    In 2010,Wallace had 12 yards per target!!!!...The first half of the season in 2011, he was also incredible .... He had a lot of double team since he was an amazing deep threat....I don't care if he was not the player that Brown become,but Wallace had a lot of double team with us.
     
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  12. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I see you post a weak position to start and that way when you backpedal and turtle to a position of strength you can still claim to be right. Your response and remember words are important was targets, that even if they ran the ball more they needed to replace the 200 targets for Brown and James. At no point do you express the quality of the target, the skill level of the two players, the picking up of slack. There will be 5 players on the field not named Juju that have 60 minutes of football in which to be targeted 11 to 12 times a game to absorb those lost by Browns trade and James departure.

    If you want to address quality scoring chances, TD's, skill plays made on targets, talent level of departed players, and so on those are actually a smaller number than the 200 wowza targets you posted. Some of those will be incredibly hard to replace (pay attention giving Brown his due here) especially the toe dragging catches that Brown made look routine. Phenomenal catches but not always necessary especially if you manage the offense correctly, which you are right remains to be seen by this staff.

    As for a drop of production. If the entire passing game has lower statistical yardage numbers this season but improves in areas such as red zone efficiency, scoring, plus turnover ratio, completions while winning games and having let's say a 13-3 season again is that bad? I think the team and I mean the team players not the two divas that have departed would consider the team goals more important than personal glory. But hey you are right at this point of the season you are being an Antonio Brown fanboy and looking at the glass half empty while I look at the assembled team and potential and see glass half full. Enjoy the drink.
     
  13. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    You mean answer a question you already know my position on? Yeah, JuJu can improve. Good job captain obvious. Now go hide behind that when he proves he can be successful without AB.

    I don't have any trouble admitting when I am wrong, I've done it with you even. Just because you think I am wrong now doesn't mean I am.

    You on the other hand can't handle it, you actually believe you are never wrong.

    Let's do an exercise. Were you wrong about Landry Jones being cut?
     
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  14. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Maybe it was half assed double teaming :facepalm:
     
  15. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Oh my friend I am not bent out of shape over your opinion of AB I find it funny. As for you saying he didn't benefit, that was not what I responded to. I responded to you saying AB did play a big part...........Any football fan knows he did. It is like saying a good running game opens up the pass game. Have the best WR in the game across the field from you can only help you. I post a clip a page ago when Ben even said in the Denver game on Juju's 97 yrd TD he went to the single coverage........that right there is the benefit. It's ok if you don't want to admit it cause your pissed at AB that is fine but I will counter every time.....well at least after the weekend is over lol.
     
  16. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    AB was having a sub par AB season last year, could it be possible that juju helped AB succeed as much as the other way around too? It kind of Go's hand in hand. we just need to find the next juju to help juju. :cool:
     
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  17. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    There was no weakness to my point at all. I'm not backpedaling in any way. My points have been consistent and accurate. You are the one trying to muddy the waters by breaking the hypothetical 400-yard drop in production into smaller parts to make it seem more palatble.

    But thank you for providing evidence to support my side of the argument, bringing up the spectacular catches by Brown. You are leaving out his ability to improvise and create separation from defenders, things he does better than pretty much any receiver in the game.

    Regarding your scenario, that's hell of a lot of optimism. Given the decline in the offensive talent on the team, it is also very unlikely. The Steelers were actually extremely efficient in the red zone last season. It's one of the reasons Boswell's failures weren't quite as devastating as they would have been in previous seasons. To expect that to improve even more with Brown gone makes no sense at all. The turnover ratio could get a little better with Roethlisberger not forcing the ball to Brown so much, but many of those forced throws were because nobody was open. That seems likely to happen more often this year with Brown gone, not less.

    The last thing I am is a Brown fanboy. My issue with his departure is that the Steelers weakened themselves and handed him everything he wanted when it wasn't necessary. Some of y'all have allowed your hate for the guy to blind you. I don't allow my disdain for him to do the same to me.
     
  18. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Brown was the one drawing more defensive attention, which is the tangible way they could have helped one another.
     
  19. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Your answer regarding Smith-Schuster supports my point. Thank you for that. It's a rhetorical tactic, to use areas of common ground to convince others that you are right and to force your opponent to agree with you.

    Where did I say Smith-Schuster can't be successful without Brown? Nowhere. So your entire premise is based on a falsehood.

    What I said is the loss of Brown makes it harder for him to produce. I said if his numbers drop significantly, a big part of that would be the loss of Brown on the other side.

    Go back and watch Dobbs fail miserably against the Raiders and tell me again how smart it was to cut Landry Jones. I was concerned that the Steelers left themselves without a viable No. 2 and what happened? I was right and it cost them a game.

    I'm wrong plenty. Sure, it doesn't seem to happen when you and I disagree, so I guess I can understand your perceptions in this matter. :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  20. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    It's been 2 months since Brown left, it's time to move on and focused on the players that the steelers have.

    This roster is good enough to compete, of course we have to be better in field position (last in the NFL last year in offense), better turnovers ratio (-11 last year) and they have to use the running game more often .

    If the steelers do that, why not us!

    I will not throw the towel because we do not have the best receiver of the NFL! ... That's ridiculous
     
  21. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    You're more focused on JuJu stats than on team stats

    If the JuJu stats drop a little, but the steelers have about 400-430 points in 2019 with a balanced offense with several players contributing and the steelers won more game that last year, I hope you'll be happy!
     
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  22. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    No, what you said is what I quoted. Whats the opposite of success? If AB is responsible for a LARGE portions of JuJus success, then he'll be a failure without him. Now you are making excuses for when that is proven false.

    You're answer about Dobbs is exactly what I knew it would be. You were spectacularly wrong in that debate and so you create an alternate universe to make yourself feel better about being wrong. You're already laying that ground work for JuJu. Have to cover all your bases right ;)

    Your last statement is odd since we just established you were wrong about Dobbs and I was right. Must be blocking that out but good to see you admit you are wrong plenty. Progress :)
     
  23. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Who suggested throwing in the towel? Nobody.

    Brown's departure is part of the story of this season and I have no interest in sticking my head in the sand and ignoring that part of it.
     
  24. Steelersfan43

    Steelersfan43 Well-Known Member

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    My point is that our receivers could still be very good, even without Brown!

    I'm think if Ben plays 16 games, he could have 4200-4500 yards, but with less interception, higher YPA and better running game
     
  25. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. I never said he would fail. You're making that up. You can't even use the excuse that you misunderstood because I just clarified it for you.

    There were two arguments regarding Landry Jones. One is if they were going to keep him or not. The other was if they should keep him or not. I thought you were talking about the latter, which was my focus.

    Are you saying that I was wrong in predicting they would keep Jones? I probably did write that at some point. We'll just assume that I wrote that at some point and say I was wrong in thinking they would keep him.

    I thought you were talking about my argument that the Steelers should have kept him, which I continued to post about well into the season. In that argument, my point about Dobbs was appropriate and accurate. I said the Steelers should keep Jones because otherwise they would not have a viable No. 2 quarterback. I was proven right when Dobbs failed miserably against the Raiders. There is no alternate universe involved. I was not proven wrong on that point. I said all along that his value was much higher to the Steelers than it was to any other team due to his familiarity with the system and experience working with the team's receivers.
     

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