Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Blast Furnace, May 18, 2019.
Or Randy Moss if we look at his 2006 season vs 2007!
Hoping Washington can step up to his potential, but praying Moncrief can win the #2 WR slot because of his ability to stretch the field which will open it up for JuJu. Also hoping the Steelers can go back to utilizing the bunch formation again...
As much as AB is on my sh*t list, I would pray that your right but my gut is telling AB is 1 of the best WR to ever lace them up. AB is faster, more skillful, more durable, more shiftier ...AB is probably #1 right now
Well, he's on our team and Brown isn't. So morally, he is far better.
Putting aside the argument over whether Ben made AB great or AB did it himself, I think the key point is that Ben and AB had a chemistry which I struggle to remember seeing in the NFL before. Ben extending plays, AB just knowing where to be on the field. On top of having two elite players here, the chemistry was the gamechanger. YOu could make the case that was also what was absent last season, though that could be because of the emergence of other receiving threats which perhaps meant Ben didn't improvise as much as he has done previously.
Go straight to the horse's mouth & ask AB how he did when Ben was on the bench.
He certainly is the best in the game today but again, why? If you were building a WR, you wouldnt make one like AB. He’d be more like JuJu but ideally you’d want JuJu to have more speed. I think JuJu is already a great receiver and just going to get better.
To be fair though, these all time greats owe their success to the QBs they played with. IMO, Rice is the GOAT and he doesn’t own that tag with Bortles throwing him the ball.
That’s even more true for AB, there is no denying he and Ben had a special connection.
Of course the common denominator is ben. Whether it was AB, heath, ward, plax, juju, holmes, eli, Switzer or whomever. Ben makes them better. Now not saying these guys didn't help Ben be better either but he is the straw that stirs the drink.
Wide receivers struggling in their first seasons is the norm. Even great receivers often aren't close to their best selves as rookies. Jerry Rice wasn't terrible, but he certainly wasn't great. Hines Ward barely got on the field on offense. The same was true of Antonio Brown. John Stallworth didn't make an impact as a rookie.
Washington was a hell of a lot more productive in college than Johnson.
16 receptions and 217 yards is below average, especially for a 2nd rd pick. Plenty of rookie receivers had 400 plus yards last year and were drafted later than rd two. You are comparing different eras, todays game is much more wide open and pass friendly.
JW college production doesn't mean anything in determining how well DJ does or not.
I guess we will truly find out how good JUJU is as the #1 since he will have the best lining up against him. Then I guess we can make true comparisons
He played against better competition and was far more productive in college. Based on who they proved themselves to be in college, it is silly to expect more from Johnson than Washington.
My point bringing up past players was to show how it doesn't make sense to write off a receiver after an unproductive rookie season. I wasn't just comparing different eras. I was comparing player across eras. There have always been examples of receivers who didn't really do much as rookies, but still became outstanding players. Is Brown not modern enough for you? He caught only 16 passes for 167 yards as a rookie.
Cool story but who wrote him off? I didn’t find anything exciting about his game and his first year was uninspiring. Like I said, maybe he takes the next step, I didn’t say he couldn’t but I definitely have concerns and so do you if your being honest.
Your point about past players was silly, it’s easier to make an impact in today’s game. And no, Brown isn’t recent enough, been in the league nearly 10 years.
LOL really? 217 yards is a low bar, DJ should eclipse that easily.
Ok I will bite on this, so you keep saying how having AB(one of the best wr's if not the best WR) didn't help Juju's numbers and that AB's success is due to Ben and now you want to bet(friendly) that Juju has better numbers than Ab? Well according t your theory having Ben over Carr that should be a no briainer, which I agree with. However here is the telling part instead of Juju vs AB how about seeing if Juju can put up the same numbers this year as he did last? That imo would tell us a whole lot more than what your saying, Juju will be our #1 guy and will have Ben throwing to him....if he puts up his numbers that will prove your point and if he doesn't put them numbers up that would make your point not hold water right?
I never said I don't have concerns. I just gave you a long list of examples of great receivers who were not productive as rookies. To say Brown doesn't qualify as modern enough to be relevant simply shows you aren't interested in having a reasonable discussion, so I'll just move on.
Or maybe you're just wrong. It's only been the last 4 or 5 years that the NFL has shifted heavily to college schemes which open's things up, giving WR's better opportunities for more production.
It's one and the same, if he tops AB, his numbers will be comparable to last seasons.
And don't confuse success with benefit. Of course it helps having AB on the field but if you are going to tell me that JuJu's numbers will dip below 1,000 yards because AB isnt here, well I'm going to think you are kookoo.
It would be hard pressed for JuJu to mach last seasons yards even with AB still here, it was a fantastic season but I'll say he will finish with 1300 which is a slight dip but will increase his TD's to 10. Which, IMO proves he is responsible for his own success and not a product of having AB play across from him.
Do people really not see JuJu's talent
I'm sorry but you don't have the two seasons he did coming into the league if you are ho hum, I don't care who is across the field from him.
I don't see it as one and the same especially with how in one breathe you want to give credit to Ben for AB's stats and in the next breathe you don't want to see that Carr is not the same caliber QB as Ben but you won't put that into account. As for what his numbers do I have no clue but I would expect them to stay the same, there is a ton of stats to make up for with AB gone. And with Juju's skills and Ben's leadership they should stay on pace with the same numbers. imo
My post has nothing to do with Juju's talent, it is plain and simple. AB was doubled all the time Juju was doubled less than 1% that is gonna effect him, that is not a knock on his talent. jmo
One in the same as in if he puts up the same numbers as last year, he'll post better numbers than AB in the process.
I know Carr isn't the same caliber QB as Ben, it's part of my whole argument that AB isn't going to be as good this year.
I even said in this thread that the all time great WR's wouldn't have been so without a top QB throwing them the ball.
Sorry, but no. It's a convenient way for you to avoid a good point. It's not like I was just relying on examples from the '70s and '80s. The game isn't so drastically different that suddenly any receiver who can't make an impact year one sucks. Some players at every position take time to adjust. It does seem to be more common at receiver than at most positions.
Despite your claim, it is still an adjustment to the NFL. The players on opposing defenses are better than what they saw in college. The schemes are often more complex and they are executed by players with more experience.
So no, I'm not wrong. You just don't like how even the recent history fits into this discussion, so you wish to omit it.
I really don't care what AB's numbers are I am not obsessed with him now, but to think he is gonna put up the same numbers with Carr is ridiculous. I guess I am confessed as to your point on part you are saying AB isn't going to be as good(which I agree with) then the next you say WR's aren't as good without a top QB.
My point is you can't put Juju with Ben vs AB with Carr, that is a no brainer. What I care about is Juju being able to put up the same numbers now as a #1. Let's face it there is 168 targets 104 receptions 1297 yds and 15 td's to replace and while it will be hard for Juju to get targeted more I don't expect his numbers to dip. Like you say I can see a big rise in TD's for him.
I don't know what to tell you NY
I never said Ben doesn't play a part in JuJus success, I said AB doesn't and JuJu will prove that to you this year.
Of course QB's a largely responsible for a WR's numbers, who else is going to deliver the ball to them. As I said before, you think Jerry Rice has HOF numbers with Blake Bortles throwing him the ball?
What would really be nice is it we are balanced enough that juju won't have to make up those big numbers and they are spread across four of five guys. That will mean everybody including Ben has more than made up for AB.
As long as those 4 or 5 guys can get open and make the catches. Juju is the only one who's proven he can do it consistently, and it was from a different role (#2).
Well, for once you wrote something I can agree with. Antonio Brown doesn't play a part in JuJu Smith-Schuster's success, at least not anymore because he's gone.
Wait. You weren't actually saying that having Brown on the field didn't help Smith-Schuster in 2017 and 2018, were you?
Hey man you know this is just a NY thing.............
Anyways AB most certainly played a part in Juju's success and if you don't believe it just read what Ben had to say about it:
While Roethlisberger believes his connection with Brown can be one of the all-time best, he's also embracing the JuJu movement. “He is reliable, dependable and trustworthy. I know he’s going to be in the right spot,” Roethlisberger said about Smith-Schuster’s game. “On that long touchdown, it was single high and you just kind of pick a side. They got pressure pretty quick. I saw JuJu went inside and I just let it go. You never really think it’s going to be a touchdown, just a completion for a big chunk.”
Ben was smart enough to go to the guy singled up which was Juju, that is the AB affect. Also that also don't happen without a good to great effort from the WR. I am not questioning Juju here I am just pointing out he will now be in a different role which is a very valid point and one brought up by others not just on here.