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devin white

Discussion in 'The Bill Nunn Draft Room' started by steel1031, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Just because you have blind faith that Fant will buck the trend doesn’t mean your statement isn’t still false. Unless you think there has been less than 2 WRs to go over 600 yards in the last 15 years ;)

    And the article didn’t just cite blocking as an obstacle to their success. It’s not playground football, they aren’t putting guys out there that don’t know what else is going on around them.

    Anyway, I think the odds of the Steelers spending a first rd pick on him is about the same as you and I agreeing on this topic.
     
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  2. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I will be happy with either however depending on what your looking for will determine which guy you like better. If you are looking for a TE to stretch the field then Fant is probably you preference with his 4.5 over TJ's 4.7 speed. If you are looking for a more blocker and all round TE then TJ is your guy. I like Fant over TJ cause he has that "big play" ability and we saw how that worked with Vance last year. IMO can't go wrong with either.
     
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  3. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Yup. You also can't be blind to the fact there is much more WR depth than top TEs. We have 5 WRs locked in and that doesn't include DHB coming back. Who is behind McDonald? Grimble? So much for quality two TE sets if you are relying on Grimble . Run/ pass ratio is the key to trying to replace ABs production. You won't get that with a one dimensional WR but with a TE like Fant you have that chance because he creates mismatches. Trends are exactly that. Trends are broken all the time. If it's true like everyone is saying that Ben is now free to spread the ball around. Who is getting more of a opportunity a 5th WR or your second TE when you should be expected to run more two TE sets to balance the O? JMO
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  4. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    To give a comparable situation, Dallas Goedert is cut from the same cloth as Fant, just as good if not better and played behind Ertz. He put up 300 yards and 4 TD's (most of this came in two good games IIRC). Hayden Hurst did nothing last year, Mike Gesicki did nothing last year, the top two TE's off the board and had no other TE competition on the team. Fant is not the next coming of Gronk, whom by the way, also did nothing his first season.

    I don't know what our WR depth has to do with anything. Vance is the starting TE, baring injury, Fant will see very little action as he is also behind Grimble.

    And how fooled do you think defenses will be if all Fant does is line up and run routes every time he is on the field? He needs to know what is going on around him, he needs to be able to recognize defensive alignments and whats coming.

    Its a trend for a reason, its a difficult position to learn as that article points out as does the lack of success over the last 15 years. What, you think you have an innovative approach to getting a TE involved that no OC has thought of in 15 years?
     
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  5. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    According to the article you linked Hurst was well on his way to bucking the trend. Goedert shares similarities with Fant only in the fact that they are more pass catchers than blockers. Goedert was timed once as a junior at his teams ProDay and ran a 4.68 compared to a 4.50 for Fant at the combine where the numbers are more accurate without the ProDay favoritism. Fant has been evaluated as having WR skills in a TE body and his 40 time is on par with most of them. I also feel going back 15 years isn't a fair assessment because TEs weren't used the way they are nowadays and the pool of those same type of players wasn't as available as it is now. Fants blocking ability is really only underrated compared to Hockenson,who is a elite blocker. Obviously Fant is going be expected to have a clue when he's out there it's just that his responsibilities will be less in the beginning. I'm sure he has a good idea of what to do coming from a pro style offense. It isn't always about the numbers. It's also about having the versatility of having two TEs on the field and how it effects the running game that 99% of us agree on us having to get back to more of. I don't care what the trends are there are way too many variables that could account for the lack of success. I believe the way we are currently constructed talent wise and depth wise a TE makes way more sense than a WR....especially in the 1st round.

    Let's put that disagreement aside and look at the depth factor of the two positions both the draft and as far as the Steelers are concerned. Who is that WR that stands out among the rest that would be worth picking at 20? There are a bunch of cookie cutter guys and really only Metcalf stands out from the rest of them. He has plenty of questions unanswered as well. So if there's no chance Fant can make a impact even though his mismatches would be far superior to any X receivers we would target at 20. Who is this guy who is gonna come in and do more? You're talking maybe the 5-7 th best WR in the draft compared to the first or second TE. Who is the one who stands out from the rest based on scouting reports? With the TEs it's either Fant or Hockenson. Trend doesn't mean it's gonna be that way forever. We've been trending of not making a SB in 10 years. So why worry about any of this?

    Edit: Gronk had 42 catches for 546 and 10 TDs as a rookie. I'd take that " nothing" every day of the week...
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
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  6. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Why are you changing the basis of the discussion? You said TEs make an immediate impact over WR's and thats simply not true.

    And Hurst wasn't well on his way to doing anything, he had a good preseason. Big whoop, still did nothing when he came back from injury. Gesicki was never hurt and did nothing.

    Only thing Fant has over Goedert is he is a little faster.

    Fant is Gronk now?

    Forget it man, if you want to keep pushing a factually incorrect narrative, knock yourself out.
     
  7. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect I said IMO Fant would have a greater impact in our current O than a WR ,who you still refuse to name that is worthy of our 2O th pick. According to the article (paraphrasing)he (Hurst) was doing things that may have lead to bucking the trend. Not my words theirs...

    4.50 ( official) is a lot faster than a 4.68( pro day) Fants scouting report states WR skills. Goederts never did.

    I didn't say Fant was Gronk. Again incorrect. What was also incorrect was your attempt to use Gronk as a example. When his actual stats proved otherwise...that's a narrative

    I don't know what you're getting so worked up about. It's not a narrative. it's my opinion. Sorry it doesn't jive with yours.
     
  8. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    You aren't suggesting you are comfortable with Grimble as our #2 are you? I am not and the discussion you and Steeldeal are having is pretty interesting. I have said for awhile TE is a bigger need that our #4 WR. Vance had a great season last year but his injury history should have us all worried. IMO after TJ, Fant and Smith the TE class takes a big dip in talent. On the other hand the WR class does not and we can get a darn good WR in any of the 3 rounds but I can't say that about the TE's. If we did end up with one of them 3 TE's I feel could be our #2 TE by week 1. Grimble is not the answer. jmo :smiley1:
     
  9. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Number 4 receiver? You may be talking about our 5th or maybe 6th WR and we typically only dress 5. So who is this receiver with the 20th pick and who is he bumping off the game day roster? JUJU,Washington,Moncrief,Switzer and Rogers ( who was just resigned) Don't forget DHB is still here and currently there is no talk of him going anywhere either. Meanwhile how many TEs do we dress? 3. Who are the 3? McDonald,Grimble( who many wanted to run out of town) and currently no one. I'll say it again the WRs are cookie cutters in this draft unless someone can name me the clear cut front runner. There are 2 first round TEs based on every single scouting report I've seen. Which is really all we can go on. Unless someone here has their own scouting report that no other scout out there has . We are basing all our opinions on film and the scouting of these players.
    Personally I'm hoping there is a impact defensive player available when we pick. Im not a fan of trading up either. IMO if it comes down to Fant or any of the 5 or 6 WRs that are basically grouped together talent wise. I'm taking Fant or even Hockenson before any of them. I'm in favor of Fant for depth and schematic reasons( running game included) IMO a WR doesn't offer the same advantages to this current group of offensive players than a TE like Fant does. :shrug:
     
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  10. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    :hmm:




    I mean, drafting a Tight End will happen. The question just remains as to which round the Steelers opt for one. I personally would not mind the second of the Third Round Picks but if Foster Moreau is the final contingency option by pick 52, he could be the likely choice. If their top Wide Receiving or Secondary option is, forget it.



    Foster screams George Kittle to me. The overplayed narrative that his lack of production should factor into his stock is nonsense. LSU is not changing their style of offensive football anytime soon. Moreau will be far better in the Pros than he was there.
     
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  11. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget we still have williamson, rader and Hodges still here. grimble is pretty athletic. I think he can do is a pretty solid job. :cool:
     
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  12. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Based on what, Grimble has been here 4 years. In them four years he didn't sniff the field his first year. Last year he had 8 targets and the year before 9. Like I said to Blast I am not ready for him to be our #2 when this team is in win now mode. Vance have a very nice season last year but you have to worry every play with him if he is gonna get up based on his history. This whole setting for player X who has never played just don't work, name me the last player with no experience that came out of nowhere that did well for us? I am not talking Conner or Hilton, guy like you just named Williamson & Radar?
     
  13. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    He was also used as a blocker over jesse in year two and three a lot. He has made some athletic moves on those few catches. He also had 21 targets year 1. The fumble at the goal line was a big mistake but the play was a good one up until that point. The stretch out TD in year two was an athletic play. So there is still a capable player there. They kept him over jesse. I know you want fant and that's fine but I don't think it's in the cards. Too many better players to be had that early. I would love to land him but I don't see it. JMO.:cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  14. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    White may get drafted top 5, I dont see how we can get him even if he goes top 10:

    Devin White, LB, LSU
    4 OF 8



    1. [​IMG]
      Darron Cummings/Associated Press
      Again, these high-end prospects aren't getting drafted to be limited.

      LSU's Devin White has had an astronomical rise over the course of the draft process, topping out as a possible top-five pick. ESPN's Mel Kiper Jr.has him fourth on his latest big board, and for good reason.

      White, 6'0" and 237 pounds, is the new-age prototype at linebacker for today's NFL. Violent and instinctive enough to patrol sideline-to-sideline against the run, he is agile enough to hold up in coverage, too.

      Given White's performance at LSU, his superb path to the draft and the weight of expectations thrown at him by a team drafting in the top 10, White might have a bigger initial impact than even Roquan Smith a season ago.
     
  15. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    if he's kept clean he can do those things. On tape I see him having a hard time getting off blocks. :cool:
     
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  16. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    He handles blockers well as a blitzer, not as good against the run, how he and bush matchup:


    Pass Rush
    Both Devin White and Devin Bush project to be effective blitzers at the NFL level. Their athleticism alone will make them dangerous pieces for defensive coordinators to use to wreak havoc, but they both show efficiency in their blitzes and the ability to get to the quarterback.

    Devin White is going to be an excellent blitzer at the next level. He times his blitzes well with the snap, has amazing closing speed on the quarterback, and shows the ability to push offensive guards into the quarterback's lap when he gets a little bit of forward momentum before the snap.

    Devin Bush doesn't seem to have white the same level of speed or power in his blitzes, but both should be plus traits for him at the next level, and defensive coordinators are going to love his ability to blitz the quarterback.

    While both offer nice closing speed on the quarterback and the strength to move offensive linemen between the tackles, Devin White's ability as a pass rusher extends beyond his physical abilities and to his technique. He offers enough bend as a pass rusher to work outside blitzes effectively against offensive tackles. He should the ability to use his hands to work through blocks on the interior. He projects to be an effective pass rusher from his off-ball linebacker position at the next level and should tally a decent sack total, even in his rookie year, if utilized properly.


    Run Defense
    Neither Devin Bush nor Devin White is particularly good at shedding blockers to make tackles at the point of attack. White tends to play with more finesse than he should, but he has had some really good reps in this area as well. Bush tends to let the blocker get into his frame too easily and loses his ability to throw off blockers at the point of attack. White has a slight advantage in this area, but it isn't a strong part of either one's game.

    https://www.rotoballer.com/devin-white-vs-devin-bush-top-rookie-idp-linebackers/615745
     
  17. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    You said you don't see a WR coming in and making a greater impact than a TE. Same difference. I pointed out how TE's have struggled their first season. The past results speak for itself. If you think Fant will buck the trend, fine (he won't) but your failure to recognize that TE's have much more trouble making an impact is frustrating.

    I haven't listed any WR's because any receiver that can take the top off of a defense would make more of an impact. And it wouldn't take elite speed to do it. Any receiver in 4.40's can. Doesn't matter if they are 3rd 4th or 5th receiver, Steelers use packages to get players on the field. They could draft a burner and use him the same way they did Bryant which would open things up for JuJu and Washington.

    He's faster but not like he has 4.33 speed, not that big of a difference. Goedert got a lot of recognition for his receiving abilities. People felt he should have been the top TE off the board and given his performance compared to Gesicki and Hurst, they were right. And he had Ertz in front of him.

    I didn't say you did say Fant was Gronk, it was a question. You posted Gronks numbers and said you'd take that all day. So again, you think Fant can give you what Gronk did? Because yeah, Id take that too but it's not happening. And for the record, I didn't realize Gronk posted 10 TD's, the article led me to believe he made less of an impact. See how easy is to admit being mistaken :smiley1:

    TE's struggle their first year. It's a fact. You are asking a lot if you think Fant will buck that trend.

    No, was simply stating he'd be the 3rd TE on the depth chart and as I have been telling Steel, I don't see him making a difference year one to change that or to work his way on the field in any capacity.
     
  18. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Bush I don't care for at all. Long jr. Can give you that production plus. 26% of his tackles were for loss. That is unheard of. As I have said, they all have warts, these two will be over drafted by someone I hope it's not us.:cool:
     
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  19. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I want Murphy that is my guy I know you don't like him I do, but why I am high on Fant or TJ is because they are top guys. Grimble is not that guy yeah he had 21 targets hi 2nd year here but then had 9 and 8 the next 2 years. Sorry not putting my eggs in his basket, they kept him over James cause of money plain and simple not cause of ability otherwise he would have gotten the 50 receptions James has been getting.

    I want what I feel is gonna produce for us and taking a WR in the first round when there is tons of depth there and very little at other positions, positions we need more is where I am going with this. jmo:smiley1:
     
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  20. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Times are changing man, we never use to have our guys on the field in year one now look what has happened. Watt and Juju have both played well their rookie years. College players are becoming more and more NFL ready due to more NFL coaching and systems in College. Last year Goedert was drafted high and he did well, very well. Look at his stats he was 22nd in receptions for all TE's.....22nd. There are 32 starting TE's in the league he is not one of them. Also he was behind the Statistical leader for TE's and one of if not the best TE last year. 100+ receptions Ertz had while leading the position.

    No reason Fant or TJ couldn't do that in our system look at how many balls JJ got last year(I posted this before) compared to our #4 & 5 WR's. Like I said to Mac Grimble is not that guy and I am not comfortable with him being that guy. Couls we find one later in the draft maybe we can I don't know for sure nobody does. What I do know is there are more WR's available later with high talent/rankings then there are TE's and we need a TE a lot more than a WR. :smiley1:
     
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  21. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    Grimbles catches and targets will increase without jesse. he was used as the better blocker mostly. Don't forget a kid named Samuels that will be used as more tha Ifn just a backup rb. He can be used as a mismatch as well against safeties and lbers. He has good hands. Hes the kind of player most teams don't have. he can do can't like work in the passing game. Of course grimble wasn't going to get the targets jesse got but now that jesse is gone we have options. I doubt Samuels is going to sit the bench. Oh, and I never said I didn't like Murphy. :cool:
     
  22. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Grimbles catches are gonna have to increase unless we draft someone but going on hope don't do it for me. Sorry but Grimble could catch on with the Pats, NYG and SF(not one reception) then came to us sat out the first year and in three years since has under 38 targets and 22 career receptions.....not impressed.

    So no you want to bring Samuels into this ok great so now we are gonna use our back up RB as a TE? Ok while Vance did play in 15 game this year we all know he will get hurt, he has NEVER played a full season. Oh and yeah Conner I think in his short career he has battled Health issues as well. You need more Samuels will see his snaps but he can't be a back up everywhere. As far as these others you names stop stop stop I never heard of 2 of them and Hodges is about as ready as Grimble.....about. We are a win now can't afford one of our top guys to go down with HOPES the next guy up can handle it. It didn't work for us with Shazier and IMO it won't work here.

    Nope you didn't have to say you didn't like Murphy but when you name half the class(in another thread) and don't mention one of if not the top guy that says something. :smiley1:

    Mac one last thing don't take what I say as snotty or disrespectful I like chatting with you I just don't agree with you. Me and Blast have this donw pat we never agree but it is fun and heck chatting cause in the end we all want the same thing and that is #7
     
  23. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned he and love as the top two guys able to handle it as inside or outside players.

    I also mentioned samuels, not as just a te but as a guy that needs to be on the field a lot and creates mismatches. You put him at te. You also are talking about fant as that type of guy. I don't care what grimble did in his first year. He is a better blocker than given credit for. He is also pretty athletic in the passing game. We can't worry about who gets hurt at every position and have a first rounder sitting on the bench ready to take over.:cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  24. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Again I said I don’t see it for our O and the way it’s structured. I’m not debating the statistics. We have Moncrief outside whose job it is to take the top off. We have JW whose strength coming out was as a deep threat as well. They also like to use JUJU outside on occasion. Now if you were to tell me there was a AB type of press man killer than maybe i would be on board , but there isn’t and it would be drafting at 20 something we already have.

    As far as the speed difference between Goedert and Fant isn’t the difference between 4.33 and 4.50 the same as 4.50 and 4.68? Also we are talking about the TE position where they are matched up against safeties and LBs not CBS. So that 4.50 is a big difference. So you are putting all your faith in Grimble? Do you realize JJ played over 500 snaps last year and he’s gone and now Grimble is gonna step into that role? That’s just as big of a stretch than what I’m saying..

    Look your opinion is he wouldn’t have a impact. Mine is he would and he could potentially have more impact in the running game than a WR ever would. If you are comfortable with 4 and 5 WR sets as the best thing for our O that’s fine. I’m not. Run/ pass ratio is a major key to our potential success. Not airing the ball out. The two TE set helps that 4 or 5 WRs don’t. I think NYSF posted Grimbles career stats since he’s been here. Now all the faith is on him? Fant has much higher pedigree and potential.

    I know I’m not crazy because there are others that agree with a TE in the first. You can worry about a trend . I’m not. I can see what he can potentially bring to this offense.
    We will just have to agree to disagree.
     
  25. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    We shall see. Hasn't been shown to be the case. There is more to being a TE then just running down the seam.

    I like Fant, he's my number one TE coming out but I see no way they use a first rd pick on him or TJ. I've come across some other TE's doing our mock that I would be happy with in the mid rounds.
     

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