Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Blast Furnace, Oct 14, 2014.
Thats the one, thanks
Many are similarly intellectually dishonest when comparing Tomlin to Cowher.
I posted an interesting link. You should check it out.
I never said Dungy was a failure. I said he was GROSSLY overrated.
I have never been a fan of Tony Dungy as a coach. Ever. Goes back years and years. He underachieved so many times in the playoffs it's crazy. He road the coattails of Peyton Manning and never really did squat. He was supposed to be a defensive guru and his offense/quarterback consistently carried his team to it's successes.
Plus I hate his religious double standards and self righteousness because he's supposedly such a "good guy". I consider his son's death a failure of his lifestyle, home life and family commitment. Yet he still has the gall to throw stones at people for their so-called moral imperfections. His championing to re-instate Michael Vick and his so-called "mentoring" sickened me.
I think the evidence of the failures of his coaching "tree" also shows and proves the fact he is overrated. None have succeeded anywhere they have gone. Most have been fired multiple times.
As to who exists and doesn't exist, I don't know. I know I think someone better than Tomlin exists. I know I think we could probably throw a dart at a dartboard of all reasonably qualified current head coaching candidates and 50-60% likely get someone better than Tomlin (and that's not even bothering to interview them).
I think if we had a qualified GM who put his head together with Dan Rooney and Art Rooney II, went through the interview process with 4-5 candidates, I would up that percentage to 90-95%.
To me, that's all that matters.
When are the percentages correct to make a change. When is the gamble on a new coach (and I agree there is/never will be a guarantee) worth it?
In my opinion, now it is worth it. Period.
Holy crap... did Dungy steal your lunch money?
What about Dungy's time at the Bucs I think he did a good job there... you know that his defense there is basically the same as the 70's Steel Curtain's 4-3? SO he is a part of Chuck's Coaching tree in a way.
I think he is slightly overrated, I mean I don't think he is any better than Cowher, and some people seem to not want to put Cowher in the HOF, but they do with Dungy. I'm not sure why?
The Tampa-2 was really designed by Monte Kiffin. Yes, it had roots with Bud Carson (and before that Tom Landry). But Kiffin is the one that had "extreme" ideas behind the defense.
And by extreme, I mean he EXCLUDED good players that didn't fit the system. He had very specific types/ideas about the type of players needed. Tampa Bay invested very heavily in the defense back then. They had 1st and 2nd round picks all over the front-7.
He preached turnovers. He preached speed over size.
And remember WHY it worked and where. The NFC Central (back then) was a passing division. In 1996-1998, the division had Minnesota (Moss/Carter), it had Detroit (w/ Colbert) running the run-and-shoot, and Brett Favre in Green Bay. Those 3 teams were top-5 in passing offense in 1996 (when Dungy was hired).
Dungy correctly found a way to have success without a good quarterback. I would consider his tenure in Tampa Bay very good. But he still got fired. His team still succeeded more WITHOUT him than it did with him.
And correctly, the minute the league evolved away from the run-and-shoot, extreme Tampa-2 defense began to struggle year-in, year-out to remain competitive. Indianapolis' defenses were never that good. Chicago was as hot/cold as you could find (all dependent on turnovers). Edwards? Frazier? Marinelli?
Did Dungy adjust? No. Did Dungy find another way to succeed? No.
The Tampa-2 is overrated just like Dungy. It's so-called "revolution" was a blip on time-line of football and extremely similar in scope/success as the run-and-shoot. Just as with the run-and-shoot, many things remain and some are successful when used by SMART coaches that aren't so pig-headed and tied to one system.
I liked Dungy back in Tampa Bay. He was okay. But his tenure in Indianpolis was a big disappointment.
I don't know if Dungy was grossly overrated but he was a good coach. Show me a coach that didn't ride the coat tails of great players to have success. Ultimately, winning games boils down to the players. Maybe what you characterize as underachieving should be turned into difficult to achieve? It's very difficult to win championships at any level.
It seems ignorant to blame Dungy for what happened to his son without being intimately involved with the situation.
There are better coaches than Tomlin. There are also worse coaches than Tomlin. Looking around here one would think this team never had success with him as the HC. The players are more responsible for the wins and losses than the coaches.
Apparently, the Steelers do have a qualified GM. The GM helped to build a few winners around here. That being said, every organization eventually goes through down periods good with GM's, coaches, players, ect. It's difficult to know when it is time to move on from a GM or coach. Many of the organizations that play musical GM"s and coaches suffer for long periods of time.
Part of the problem with this fan base is the unrealistic expectations that people set for the organization. People can know and admit that this team is in a rebuilding phase and not have the patience to temper their expectations.
Tomlin has underachieved using a very unbiased analysis in 5 of his 8 seasons as head coach. Expectations on a NATIONAL level have lowered for this team because of his and Colbert's management.
How do you rate Colbert's performance over the past 5 seasons? No players on the roster from the 2008 and 2009 draft classes. Very few, if any, impact players from their top picks.
I have never had and never will have unrealistic expectations.
This front office and coaching staff are UNDERACHIEVING. There is no logical or rational way to spin that any other way.
The apologists only starting calling this a rebuilding AFTER we starting losing. Those fans certainly weren't expecting to lose to Tim Tebow. Those fans didn't expect back to back 8-8 seasons. They didn't call the roster short of talent before the losing started to happen.
I love the double standard.
Our last 11 losses have been to the following quarterbacks: Locker, Dalton, Cutler, Cassel, Pryor, Brady, Flacco, Tannehill, Flacco, Glennon and Hoyer.
Read that list again and explain to me how my "expectations" are unrealistic?
God, the apologists for the crap we are seeing on the field is mind numbing. Now we're in full re-building mode and we might as well sit on our hands, watching bad, stupid football and wave our pom-pom's like good little girls and boys.
Del, you've already painted a scenario where even if they go 11-5, you still want them fired, you've stated this. Because you surmise that they will sit on their laurels and do nothing further to improve the team while they pat themselves on the back. If thats not unrealistic, I don't know what is. I asked you once before and you never answered, what do you consider a successful season?
Two 8-8 seasons and me and others are apologists, no, just a better understanding of NFL.
to me a succesfull season is win at least one playoff game , and ha ve some rookies on the rise
Yeah your expectations are unrealistic. There hasn't been a team in the history of the league that's managed to do what you seem to expect, be on top every year.
There used to be a time when fans could count certain teams that would make the playoffs. Those days went away in the era of free agency. There are no guarantees that SB champions will even make the playoffs the next season in today's NFL. Every fan knows their team has a chance to win every week. That's one reason why the NFL so compelling. Teams are so close talent wise that sure wins are no longer guaranteed.
The NFL has leveled the playing field to the point where below average QB's and average QB's can help their teams win games. Falling down eventually happens to the best of organizations.
I am not apologizing for anyone. I just knew that this day would come for the Steelers again. There was no way they could stay on top indefinitely no matter how hard they tried.
That is on Lebeau who many fans have said should have retired a few years ago at least.
I predicted before the season started at an 11-5 season that is not representative of the coaching and GM work of the team. Because I think the coaching and GM work on this team is currently below par, I predicted that EVEN with that 11-5 season (which would protect everyone's job), we are still a mediocre, average football team and 2015 would reveal that.
Now that we've started the season 3-3, I find it hard to predict another 11-5 season. IF it happens, I still think I've seen enough to know there is disfunctionality happening somewhere in our organization. I've never been a huge fan of Colbert's and thought we should have fired him after last year's 8-8 season so I'm not backing off that.
I still think Tomlin is not the answer and should be fired, but I am against "blowing it up" after this season.
Therefore, I'm in between a rock and a hard place. The owner did NOT do what I recommended last off-season, I still believe we need a strong, smart GM FIRST to evaluate Tomlin, his coaching staff and the talent on the roster CORRECTLY before making any decisions of change. That includes a decision on Roethlisberger's next contract. I am more worried at the long-term impact of Colbert's decisions this off-season than I am keeping Tomlin on one more season.
Therefore, I am firing Colbert as soon as possible. I have stated I would fire him now (or maybe during the bye week). That is step one regardless of where our season ends or where are final record is.
If the new GM wants more time to evaluate Tomlin or this coaching staff or even some roster positions, that is the purpose of a new set of eyes on our situation. I would defer to his judgement of the situation.
I can not give you a definitive win total for a successful season, because it doesn't work that way. Each opponent left on the schedule will be different when we finally see them. I know Vegas has devalued the Steelers as a team. Based on individual game odds, last season they predicted a 9-7 team (down from a 10+ win team the year before). This year, they have continued to handicap us as more and more mediocre (as evidence by being underdogs @ Cleveland - that's the first time in over a decade).
I think by the time it's all said and done an "overachieving" regular season would be 10+ wins, but the totality of Tomlin's work to date is still the driving factor for my decision to instigate change. We are not really getting better as a team. I don't have faith in his system. I don't have faith in his ability to correct problems. The roster still has major problems. You can call it "rebuilding" or "adjustment" all you want, but I strongly disagree it was "inevitable" and to be expected because of NFL rules, the salary cap or any other external reason.
I think the league is ripe for the taking with a modern, super-smart GM that understand and applies resource management, value-weighted decisions to the GM process. There are so many disfunctional teams with bad ownership in the NFL right now that even .500 is unacceptable to me. There is just no excuse this has been our path since 2007 to me.
I know I'm talking to a wall. I'm not going to convince the die-hard fans that expected and accept a downturn in the team like it's the stock market or something. I just don't agree. This team is where it's at not because of some external, NFL-mandate that all teams regress to the norm. It is here because of bad decisions that are clearly evident year-in, year-out since 2008. It is here because of bad self-evaluation of the team roster. It is here because of poor coaching decision and in-game actions. It is here because tangible, undisciplined actions during games.
To sweep those bad actions under some imaginary rug and call it "the NFL just balancing the playing field" is lazy and inevitable is wrong. Plain and simple and I'm not buying it. You're just not going to spin this away as a team getting old and moving into the sunset of it's heyday. We were never THAT great when we were winning and the misunderstanding of that fact is one of the major reasons we're where we are today.
The problem with our organization right now is no one knows who is responsible for this simple and evident fact.
We keep hearing that the team is "rebuilding" and "in transition". I don't want to oversimplify it, but when a team has a franchise quarterback of Ben's caliber they don't go into rebuilding mode. They may retool as they continue to transition and fill in around their franchise quarterback but they don't go into total rebuild mode where .500 seasons are the accepted norm.
Long time fan of the forum. I have been reading for years on the old board and this one. I enjoy reading the comments of everyone. Especially Del, TMC even pimply dan or whatever his name was. Now to this post. I am 51 and been a life long fan and probably stay one. The one thing I have always loved about our teams was the physical play and attitude we seemed to carry year in year out. I claim no expertise in these matters and never joined these forums through out the years and the highs and lows. But I am now because I believe the Steelers are in a spot that I think is worse than losing....they are IRRELEVANT! Soft and irrelevant. I am not sure when teams stopped fearing them but I do think teams also stopped respecting them. The loss at Oakland last year is an example, Tampa at home this year etc. I think 8-8 is as good as it gets with the current coaching. I believe a team reflects its head coach and this head coach is out of his element. Cowhers players are almost gone and so is his attitude and what is left is Tomlins. I understand Colbert gets blame too for picks but what we see on the field in attitude, effort, preparation and game planning starts and ends with Tomlin. Its been said here many times, going 8-8 and picking accordingly is worse than going 2-14 and getting better players. I tend to agree. I just hope the Rooneys don't keep Tomlin for 15 years. Soft and irrelevant. I agree with Del on this one. Also, in honor of Dan, we have to stop loosing games and start winning some.
I saw on nfl insiders today , that DL , lack of leadership amngst player, just abt everyone and everything was the problem,....... except Tomlin seems like the media refuses to blame this man for anything
Here is what's crazy many of the things you have just mentioned in these last two paragraphs are things that everyone has agreed on at some point or another even Blast. The poor decisions on the roster like using the Transition tag on Max Starks, the extending Willie Colon, using the tag on Worilds this season so you can work at a long term deal which he isn't jumping at, letting Sanders walk when you could have at least gotten a pick for him from N.E., one that stills gets me is the Holmes trade, yes they made a statement by doing it but then turn around and cheapen that statement some years later by standing by Tammu. That's not even coutning the coaching choices that have been dissected and debated to death, the choice of players with multiple roles that they aren't good at over solid one position guys. Movement towards a New England style of offense when you don't have the personnel for it. These are all things that separately we can agree on but collectively many balk at. I think Del brings up some solid points, not sure I agree with all of it but he is making sense especially these last two paragraphs.
I'd probably concede on Colbert if these last two drafts don't pan out like I think they will. I think that more then coaching is the problem.
Think you are taking that word too literally, I usually say transition but take your pick, no one here is talking about a total rebuild when they say that. 8-8 teams aren't in a total rebuild, we almost made the playoffs last year. Its very hard to stay on top, since 1992, the Steelers have only finished under 10 wins 9 times, 9 times in 22 years, thats freaking amazing. Maybe my expectations just aren't as high as you guys.
I honestly don't understand why people are afraid of change.
This isn't being drastic or having a quick trigger. We've given Tomlin EIGHT YEARS to really evaluate the guy as a head coach. I'm not advocating cleaning house every two years if we don't make the playoffs. I'm not advocating constantly having lame duck GM's and coaching and holding them to unrealistic expectations.
It's been EIGHT YEARS. Tomlin's tenure in the league is currently 6th out of 32 head coaches. Only five coaches in the entire league have been with their team longer than Tomlin. By no means does my advocacy of change indicate I want to turn into the "average" NFL franchise that fires their head coach every three seasons.
By default I think we should be better than those impatient owners and the fact that we aren't is further blight on our situation.
For those that advocate stability, why aren't we better than those franchises that DON'T have stability?
I have listed the QB's we've lost too over the past 18 months, here are the COACHES:
Pettine*, L. Smith*, Harbaugh, Philbin*, Harbaugh, Belichick, D. Allen, Frazier, Trestman*, Lewis, Munchak, Lewis, Garrett, Turner, Shermer, Harbaugh, Munchak
Four rookie coaches in the last nine losses.
Why is change so hard to accept? Why do people think change is a death sentence? We are LOSING to teams that change. We are LOSING to transient teams with no direction.
Isn't that the greatest reason to understand why change is finally needed in Pittsburgh?
I just want to see him get the opportunity to build his own team and because I believe he is a good coach that he can accomplish that task. I don't want to rehash an argument thats been beaten to death, but Cowher went through the same thing and brought us back. You can choose to believe the circumstances were different, I don't. I've watched the Rooneys do it right for decades, I have no reason to not trust them now. They aren't football idiots, I'm sure if they feel Tomlin isn't capable he will be let go. I think he is safe through this year and that next year will be his last if they aren't back to playing good ball.